Elbert is struggling to accept how his Dominican parents' married relationship works. And Luis Resendez, a marriage and family therapist who works with Latino men, helps us understand what shapes our ideas of marriage and partnership.
Featured Expert:
Our expert this week is Luis Resendez, licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, adjunct professor, author, and CEO and founder of Vida Emotional WellnessLuis was born in San Bernardino and has lived in the Inland Empire most of his life. He graduated from both San Bernardino Valley College and Cal State San Bernardino (B.A., Criminal Justice) and began his mental health career as a residential counselor at a boy’s home in the eastern San Gabriel Valley in 2004. A year later he became the in home behavior specialist for an agency based in Los Angeles County. After obtaining my Master’s degree in Marriage and Family Therapy 2010 from Pacific Oaks College, he began full time work as a community based therapist for an intensive outpatient (Full Service Partnership) program in the Highland Park region of Los Angeles. In 2012 he returned to the eastern San Gabriel Valley to start a gardening based group therapy program for a public mental health agency in Pomona. In 2015 he passed the California state licensing exam and became a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. Luis has a new book, What About Dad? Understanding and Addressing Postpartum Depression in Men, out now. Learn more about his private practice, Vida Emotional, here.
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Juleyka Lantigua:
Hi, everybody. Elbert is with us today. When Elbert thinks about the sacrifices his Dominican parents made for each other and for their whole family, moving to the U.S., starting over, setting up a beautiful life for all the kids, he sometimes thinks that maybe they missed out on many life experiences. Now that they're retired, Elbert is eager to help them make up for lost time. Is he right? Did they actually miss out on anything? Let's get into it.
Elbert: My name is Elbert Garcia. I'm a first-generation Dominican American, born and raised in Washington Heights. Growing up, I called my parents to their faces I guess, Mami and Papi. Behind their backs, my brother and my sister just referred to them as M and D. My parents are two fairly different folks. My mother is expressive and loud. My father is quiet and reserved.
One of the things that was interesting that I don't think I ever noticed when I was growing up, but certainly as I've gotten older, was there's a mutual dependency that they have. A lot of that makes sense. They're immigrants in a new country. Sometimes you learn to think that the only people you can depend on is each other. Yet, I think what's been difficult is in many ways they've sacrificed a lot, personally, for each other to raise a family, to do things.
Elbert: As some of the need for those sacrifices has lessened; i.e., as we've left, as we've grown and have our own lives and stuff, most parents, I think, were led to believe they will have more time for themselves. They still very much have this, without judgment, I would say a little bit of an imbalance, a power imbalance. They will continue to still sacrifice for each other and not do things for themselves.
Also, it means that they won't also take risks. English is not their first language, and although they've been here for 30-plus whatever years, I think they're very cautious about the spaces they enter into. Trying to get them to do different things and also trying to understand that sometimes one of them might not be willing to do it, but you should still do it has been an issue and a difficulty.
Elbert: Even the simplest things. It might be, "Hey mom, why don't you come and visit me?" "Well, no, your father doesn't want to go out today." "Well, that's great, but can't I just pick you up and have dinner with you?" "Oh, your father doesn't want to go out to eat? "Well, I'll just take you out. We'll go out." Or even to my dad, "Hey dad, let's go out and let's just watch a ball game or something." "Oh, no. Well, your mother doesn't want go out today."
I remember one time even asking my mother, "Hey, why don't you stay a couple of days with us? Take a little break from each other." Or just, she wanted to go and go shopping. My dad, like a lot of men I guess, doesn't like to go shopping, but she loves to go window shopping. What would your father eat? He's a grown man of 70 plus years. I'm assuming at some point he knew how to fix a sandwich, I think he'll be fine.
Part of it, I think as we get older with our own parents, and especially if we also are raising children, you get this almost idea that we want to see the people that we love reach their potential. Now people are like, Oh, live your best life or be your best. I think sometimes I will look at my parents and we'll be again, the same way. We want them to do things and experience things. Maybe they didn't do certain things when they were younger because of your kids. Part of it is almost convincing them that you don't have to do that anymore. You can actually begin to live your own life as opposed to live it for somebody else.
Elbert: The thing about growing up is seeing two people who clearly love each other and clearly who are actively sacrificing things for each other, even when they don't want to sacrifice for each other, is that I think I grew up with this sense of the sacrifices that you make for your marriage and your partners and the sacrifices you don't.
Me and my wife are both first generation college graduates. My wife is Puerto Rican from the South Bronx, I'm Dominican from Washington Heights. I think one of the things that we are aligned on is that we never want to have the other person feel limited. Sometimes that's translated into spending time apart from each other because our career might take us on a particular assignment or a particularly living arrangement. That was a foreign concept for my parents because in some ways their belief is the marriage is one unit, you keep the one unit together and distance can cause a whole bunch of complications.
Elbert: When they first got married, my father came here, and then it wasn't about a year and a half until my mother joined him back here. I was like, You guys were separated. I don't think they ever thought about that as a choice. I think they just thought about that as those were the circumstances. When I really think about it, and I'm just talking about this now and it actually makes a lot of sense is that my parents, I think, are sometimes afraid of growing. I think sometimes when people grow, they grow apart.
Elbert: I've got one kid. My parents have three. My dad was a dad, he had three kids by the time he was 25. I don't think I could still tie my shoe lace when I was 25. If I think about all the stresses and anxieties that they had, they left the country in terms of DR soon after the 1965 invasion of American troops. They took a whole bunch of chances and risks and leaps and courages. There's a bunch of things that they did. There's a bunch of stuff that they did even with us that years later I would know they were scared about doing. If they were here, I would say that they are so courageous. Part of this, getting them to take more risks or whatever, is to not have them to do something different, but to actually build on those times in their lives when they have done that.
Lantigua: All right. I completely get where Elbert is coming from. I really truly do, because my parents were also very hard workers who just worked, went to church, came home. Worked, went to church, came home for years and years and years. As an adult who works, sometimes goes to church and is very much focused on her family, I've created other opportunities to do other things that really enriched my life. They didn't have those same opportunities. I get that.
But at the same time, as has happened throughout many conversations on the show, I wonder if first gens have the right to pressure our parents into wanting things that we want for them. Do we have that right to want something for them more than they actually want it for themselves? To help us figure it out, I did what I always do. I called in an expert.
Luis Resendez:
My name is Luis Resendez. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I'm owner of Vita Emotional Wellness. We're a small group psychotherapy practice based in Riverside, California. I've been practicing for 13 years, and my specialties include men's mental health issues and trauma. And I really love what I do. It's very fulfilling work, challenging at times, but nevertheless, very rewarding.
Lantigua: As you listened, what did you hear in Elbert's story?
Resendez: Many things. My experiences as a therapist, and even just being a Latino male myself. The dynamics and a relationship between parents, the husband - wife, mother - father. He mentioned both of them sacrificing for the family. That just seems to be a common thread in Latino, Latinx families. Mom and dad work, do this, do that, just to give, give, give. At the end of the day, when in his case, he grew up, moved out and starting a family of his own. Now what? We were just used to sacrificing so much, so now we're sacrificing for each other.
Resendez: The other thing that stood out was they left their native country after something potentially traumatic had happened. Just fleeing, escaping from that, security and safety, I would guess that his parents probably had it in the forefront of their minds is that “we are going to leave to establish a better life for ourselves and our children somewhere down the line, so we're going to make the sacrifice, but we have to uproot and start somewhere fresh.” That can be very anxiety - inducing, just the word sacrifice. What could be lost in that sacrifice in terms, especially, of just a relationship with the children, a relationship with each other as a husband and wife.
Lantigua: So, one of the things that really caught my attention was how much insight he seemed to have, or at least he thought he had into his parents' relationship. Basically, Elbert describes their relationship as co-dependence, and in his eyes, that's negative.
Resendez: I don't know if I would label it necessarily co-dependence. Murray Bowen, he was a renowned psychiatrist in the mental health field, used this term called undifferentiated ego mass. That's basically where just a family, they're stuck together emotionally. One thing affects one person in the family, it affects all of us. They're kind of like, not to use poor terminology, but just a “blob”, a mass of identity. I think that just with leaving their country, and again, being really diligent and making sure that they provided for their children, it by default put them in a place where they had to depend on each other. A lot of the boundaries get blurred together. Before you know it, the unit functions as one. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but when there has to come a separation of identities and personal fulfillments being met, that seldom happens. Just because, again, we function as one. We stick together as one, and when we have to separate, that's a little odd and strange and even uncomfortable for some folks.
Resendez: Another thing he had mentioned too was just his belief that they have a fear of growing. I remember a line from this Fleetwood Mac song, “I'm afraid of changing because I built my life around you.” When they had moved here, when they were living together, starting their family, everything was about them, the children, and also you, my spouse. They were pretty much the center of each other's universe. But when things changed, the kids moved on and so forth, “Oh my God, I have to grow. I have to change, but I've built my whole life around you and the kids. Now what?” That can be very anxiety-inducing.
Lantigua: Also it is perfectly okay to be happy with your life as it is.
Resendez: Yes.
Lantigua: That was the thing that as I listened, I thought, but if they're happy with their life the way they have it, that's a good thing. To me as I listened, as both someone who grew up with immigrant parents and someone who has been married and has been in that dynamic, I thought, wait a second. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for them. Please Luis, talk to us about this gap in perception between how he wants to have his marriage and his marriage dynamics, and how he's perceiving his parents and their marriage dynamics.
Resendez: I think at the end of the day, it all ties into assimilation and expectations. In a quote-unquote traditional sense in American culture, with the family is that, okay, we raise the children. They go off and do their own thing. They live their own lives and so forth. With the children also sometimes thinking actually that, Okay, I'm a part of my family, but I'm going to live my life a little differently. I'm not going to do what mom and dad did. I want to have my relationship. I want to run my family. I want to run my ship, in not so many words, a completely different way. You just think again, of media, social media, TV, movies and so forth, and assimilation, all of that kind of molding these perceptions. I think with the younger generations is that when they look at these things through these lenses, they feel, maybe not a necessity, but just some idea that, okay, I have to bestow these expectations upon other people.
Resendez: Maybe my own children, but maybe even my parents. My wife and I go out, we do things, she hangs out with her friends, I hang out with my friends. But hey, you know what, I think my mom and dad need to also do that as well. I think the concern with that could be with especially older adults, parents. If they hear things like that, they could misinterpret it as you're telling me how to live my life. Of course, it can come from a place of good intentions from their son or daughter that “I just want you to have fun and enjoy retirement years” and things like that. It could still be misinterpreted as you're trying to tell me what to do, thanks, but no thanks. That can create a little bit of tension if left unchecked.
I think at the end of the day, if whatever works for them, works for them. If they're happy, let them do their thing and focus on you. Your life, your fulfillment, raising your children, if you're bring any children into the world. Just remember that even though you are connected to your parents, you still have your identity of who you are. They have their identity. That's taking that blob I mentioned earlier and just breaking it apart and everybody go off and do their own thing.
Lantigua: Yeah, be your own blob. Come on, be your own blob.
Resendez: Yeah, exactly.
Lantigua: Okay. You made a really good point about focusing on your needs. The more that I listened to Elbert, the more I thought, Oh, you want more of your mom and dad. When one of them says no because of the other one, you're feeling a little bit left out, or you're feeling like you're not getting the fullness of your mom and dad the way you wanted. To me, that felt more like, how does Elbert express to their parents how much he wants to hang out with them, go to dinner with them, without making it about his perceived codependency that they have with one another? How do we express that to our parents as adults to be like, but I just want to hang with you, mom?
Resendez: Yeah. I think it's sticking with facts. The facts are that he doesn't live with his parents anymore. He's established his own life with his own wife, but nevertheless, there is that yearning for interaction with parents and family. I think if he approaches it with just facts and that, Yeah, I'm doing my own thing, you're all doing your own thing, and it would be nice to see you to hang out, to spend time, go to dinner. If you want to come over and visit, I'll prepare dinner. Of course, he could interject a little bit of his emotions, but maybe more in the sense that I really miss you two. I hardly see you all. I'm always busy. There's a lot going on and that makes me miss you more. Just whatever it is, but to personalize it.
Resendez: Bringing back to, nevertheless, I still want to nourish my connection with you all because that connection lasts for a lifetime. That way when they hear it too, it even gives them more reason in a non-guilty way or guilt-tripping way in that, yeah, we don't see him. He is busy. He's got a lot going on. Maybe we should do, on our part, what we need to do to continue to nourish this relationship.
Lantigua: Maybe a little bit of vulnerability about you're missing them and that's legit and cool. That's a good enough reason for them to hang. Yes. Is there anything, Luis, that I didn't ask you about that you see as being relevant or key or something that we should cover as we talk about that separation between the blob that was our family and us as individual little blobs going out into the world and blobbing happily?
Resendez: I think we just have to be aware that we live in a world, it seems to be changing by the hour. Media, whether it be social media, TV, movies, is definitely shaping our perceptions of our identities, our place in the world, but even to our families, how we run our own families, how we connect our families. I think, especially too in immigrant communities, is that we are mindful, we are careful that as the generations pass and there's more simulation into mainstream culture, that we still hold onto these identifiers of our cultural backgrounds in especially Latino, Latinx families. Family is a really big thing. Even though the children, they may live in a different part of the country or something like that, still fostering that connection with their parents. Let's use some of that same technology that's kept us apart to our advantage.
Resendez: Let's do some video calls. Let's do some instant messaging through Instagram or whatever it is. Let's keep that connection going. As our parents get older, realistically, we know that we're not going to have them forever, at some point they leave. It's just part of life. At least the children can always look back in that, yeah, I got married, started my own family and moved away. I was far apart from my mom and dad, but we still kept in touch, visited each other when we could. We made the most of it. Looking at that with a sense of pride and perhaps, one way or another, transmitting that value of close family connections to any of their own children who they decide to maybe bring into the world someday.
Lantigua: Agreed, Agreed. Ah, Luis you are a gem. Thank you so much for coming by.
Resendez: Thank you very much. It was a pleasure to be here.
Lantigua: Okay. Here's what we learned from Luis.
Let them do their thing. Just like you, your parents have their own identities separate from the family unit, the blob. Respect their right to make their own choices and live their lives as they see fit.
Beware of media influences. Consider how the media shapes your perception and your expectations of what family looks like. Let your values, not streaming your social media platforms, guide you instead.
And remember, focus on you. Avoid giving unsolicited advice to others. Instead, open up about yourself, your emotions, your needs, and your desire to nurture your relationship as a family.
Monica Lopez: Thank you for listening and sharing us. How to Talk to Mami & Papi About Anything is an original production of LWC Studios. Virginia Lora is our show's producer. Kojin Tashiro is our mixer. Elizabeth Nakano mixed this episode. Manuela Bedoya is our marketing lead, and Juleyka Lantigua is the creator and host. I'm senior editor Monica Lopez. On Twitter and Instagram, we're @talktomamipapi. Bye everybody. Same place next week.
CITATION:
Lantigua, Juleyka, host. “Giving Advice to Parents” How to Talk to [Mamí & Papí] about Anything, LWC Studios., September 19, 2022. TalkToMamiPapi.com.