Julie finds it hard to buy her Korean mom a gift she won't criticize. She also suspects her mom's reactions are not just about the objects. And Yin J. Li, a psychotherapist who works with clients from the Asian Diaspora, helps us identify and understand hidden family tensions so we can better address them.
Featured Expert:
Yin is a Portland-based psychotherapist with a private practice called Theralane. As a child of working class immigrants, they understand the shame and stigma of needing and seeking support from an outsider, a therapist. After a 15-year career in technology, they decided to pursue a Masters in Counseling Psychology at California Institute of Integral Studies, and became a licensed therapist. Yin has a podcast called Asians Do Therapy, aiming to reduce stigma and increasing accessibility.
If you loved this episode, be sure to listen to When Parents Going Back 'Home' Changes Everything and When Mom Body Shames You.
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Juleyka Lantigua:
Hi, everybody. Today, I'm speaking with Julie. Julie and her Korean mom have a tense dynamic around a very specific activity: gift-giving. Meeting her mom's expectations weighs really heavily on Julie to the point where something that's supposed to be joyful has become excruciating for her. Let's get into it.
Julie Kim : My name is Julie Kim. I'm a writer and organizer from Queens, New York. I am a city government employee as well. And in my family, I call my mom and dad, eomma and appa. My relationship with my mom growing up has been, she was, I kind of viewed her as an authoritarian in the house because she kind of, she did scare me. I very much followed her lead. Like I wanted to do what she was telling me. However, I would say, you just wouldn't tell her things if I knew she wouldn't approve and that was kind of how the relationship went. So when she disapproved of something, she would go into the kitchen and get a wooden spatula and tell me to put my hands out and yeah, and hit my hands. Of course, like me hating pain, like any normal person would not do that. And then I would pretty much get hit wherever.
A source of tension that my mom and I have had, which in a way it sounds really small, but is actually gift giving. As a child I remember, I would just make her something like, it was just kind of, she didn't really expect anything from me. But I feel like as we got older, she would expect gifts from me on Christmas, Mother's Day, and her birthday, pretty much those three days. I feel a lot of pressure to get something that she would approve of which ultimately more often than not, she wouldn't approve of, or she would not really like it. Yet at the same time, she is very adamant that I get her something. And I feel like every holiday when it does come up, I get a sense of dread. Weeks beforehand I already start having that sense of dread and pressure of, okay, what am I going to do? I don't feel like I'm a good gift giver.
I really don't. I never really grew up with a lot of gift giving. I feel like it's not really, like I got a lot of gifts from my parents. It was more, they would make me food or maybe give me cash. I didn't really grow up expecting any gifts. And I feel less pressure with friends and people where I know they're not expecting something from me. I hate that feeling of unsure if it'll be disappointment. I recently went to Europe and she gave me a list of things that she wanted, German toothpaste, cough drops. And then she told me she wanted this specific type of herbal bee wax that they should have at a German pharmacy or something like that. And so I couldn't find it. We talked on the phone before I left and she said, it's fine.
Julie Kim : Don't worry about it. Like, if you don't find it, it's not a big deal. When I got back, it was a big deal. She was really upset that I didn't get it. Even though she mentioned in passing, she didn't care. But obviously she did. She wanted to feel like even if she said that, I would still feel the want, like desire to go that extra mile for her. She definitely wants attention for me. That is not a secret. Like I know she wants attention from me. She wants a really close relationship with me and she wants that type of best friend relationship, which she's had said herself. And I feel like maybe she's not, I mean, she's not getting that from me. And so the gift giving or the occasions for gift giving is the few times where she feels, I am maybe taking that intentionality of thinking of her.
So the last time my mom and I got into a conflict, this was like the first time that I actually felt empowered enough in my life to actually push back on the gift issue or at least even bring it up. I actually did say something a bit dramatic, which was, I don't want to get you gifts anymore. I'll just give you money. Like I don't want to do it anymore. And then she basically got really upset. I don't even remember what she said. The thing is I want to get her a gift. It's just that the way that it's happening is not good. I do see that that negativity could also be a way of getting my sustained attention. I think that really is what it is. It's the attention part. If I didn't have to make eye contact with her and she was on the show, I would say, I love you. Trust that I do want to do what you want from me. I want to get you a gift. It's just become this like monster of a situation.
Lantigua: Julie's story made me think about how tensions with our parents over “small” things are often signs that something else is going on, something much deeper. How can we as first gens better understand the underlying tensions that often strain our family relationships and what can we do to alleviate them? You know what I did, because we need help figuring this one out. I called in an expert.
Yin J. Li: My name is Yin. I'm a psychotherapist in private practice. I primarily see Asian and Asian Americans in my practice. The experience of the Asian diaspora and how it has shaped our psyche is a particular interest to me. I also have a podcast called Asians Do Therapy, where I talk to Asian folks on both sides of the couch, both Asian clinicians, as well as Asian folks who have been in therapy.
Lantigua: You listened to Julie's story. What did you hear in the story?
Li: Yeah. There's three primary themes that I heard. The first one I heard is that and I think while Julie's talking about conflicting feelings she has about gift giving, I think she's really talking about conflicting feelings she has about her mother and the way that she grew up. And I think the second theme I heard is that the impact of this experience with her mother of being hit, that it sounds traumatic in a lot of ways. If I think of trauma as a wound, then there is a wound there for Julie. And the last theme I heard is around the symbolism of the gift giving both for the mother and for Julie. So those are the three themes that I kind of heard.
Lantigua: So where do you want to start the unpacking?
Li: The first one, the conflicting feelings that Julie might have about her mother. It can be very confusing for children when their caregiver doesn't feel safe. And I think you can be particularly nuanced and complex for children of immigrants, because there's all these other layers to it. While physical discipline and punishment and being hit is not uncommon in many communities, I think with children of immigrants there's this added layer of maybe the narrative that I'm doing this for your own good, because I love you. There might be a narrative of I've sacrificed so much. This hardship that I'm enduring is for you, this living in America, living as an immigrant, it's all for you.
Li: There may be the experience of the child wanting to protect the mother, knowing the hardships that the mother endured. So it's hard to make sense of this. And I think the last piece, I think that it's kind of nuanced for children of immigrants is that there's a gap in what we see in our homes and what we see idealized in American TV or in our friends homes. So this gap is confusing as well. So I think Julie's trying to make sense of it. How do I make sense of what happened to me and how do I make sense of this relationship that I want with my mother? How do I move forward given what has happened?
Lantigua: Is that part of how the wound develops?
Li: Well, I think the wound, I think when we're under threat, we feel scared and Julia alludes that I feel scared of her and I think wounds or traumas kind of live in our body unless we kind of have an opportunity to heal them or tend to them. So while Julia, as an adult might cognitively know that her mother might not hit her as an adult, but there might be a memory of that, a memory of being hit. So the disapproval of the mother, my equal being hurt, being hit.
Lantigua: Right.
Li: So when Julie says, well, my mother gets really upset when she doesn't get the gift she wants. And I get a little curious, is there yelling, is there a look on her face? Is there a tone? And do these things trigger something in Julie? The other thing that happens is that I think Julie, I don't know her, but there might be a sense that she wants to be close and that the mother wants to be close, but it doesn't feel safe to be close. That's how the wound also shows up because closeness doesn't feel safe here.
Lantigua: And the third theme, how does that show up with your clients and how do you help them to address it?
Li: Yeah, the symbolism of the gift. For the mother, I imagine that the gift giving, it's a symbol of the child's love, the child's attachment to her, but the child still thinks of the mother. That's why it's important. I don't know of the economic financial situation of this family, but if there has been financial scarcity, financial stability, poverty, the gift might also be a symbol of we made it, I made it, it was worth it, whatever I went through, was worth it. And lastly, I think for certain people, and certain generation, and certain people that had experienced certain things in life and I'm alluding to the mother's own trauma here and the ways that she grew up you, that something concrete for her feels a lot safer as opposed to words, as opposed to something intangible. They're not talking about their relationship. They're talking about the gift giving.
Li: They're not talking about what happened in the past. They're talking about the gift giving now. I think for Julie, the gift is a symbol of her autonomy as her ability to push back. Julie speaks of not being a good gift giver, which is kind of a interesting way to describe it because in my mind, maybe she doesn't want to be a good gift giver for her mother. Maybe she is her own rebellion and resistance to this authoritative mother. I'm not going to give you what you need or what you want of me. I'm going to be a poor gift giver. So when she said, I don't want to give you gifts anymore. I think I heard, I don't want to be under threat anymore.
Lantigua: One of the things that I found ironic in the conversation with Julie is that she says that gift giving in her family growing up, wasn't actually a thing that they really did. And it has now taken on a much greater significance in her relationship with her mom, even though it wasn't really customary in the family. And I was really surprised by that.
Li: Yeah. I think sometimes parents, it's hard for them to ask maybe for attention, affection, time. It's hard to say, are you thinking of me? Might be easier for the mother to ask can you buy me a gift? I'm expecting a gift. It might be easier to demand than to ask, it might be easier to be authoritarian than to feel needy, to be in need of my daughter. So that might be less vulnerable for the mother.
Lantigua: So I see a little bit of a deficit in Julie and her mom's interactions. On the one hand, mom really wants attention, for Julie to focus on her. And then on the other hand, there's so much that is going unsaid on Julie's part for so many reasons that we can imagine. There are just things and feel and experiences that she's not able to talk about with her mother. And I'm wondering if in your practice, you come across other types of relationships, familial relationships in which there are these relational deficits that people encounter and how you help them to identify those and start to address them.
Li: I think you're speaking of deficits in terms of a gap, right?
Lantigua: Yes, exactly.
Li: Kind of a lack of, like not being able to connect, not being able to speak to something.
Lantigua: Yep.
Li: Yeah. I think it's quite common with children of immigrants to have this gap in communication and understand for so many reasons, being bi-cultural or having a language gap. It's interesting. I may never be invited for this podcast again, because I know it's [inaudible 00:13:46] How to Talk to Mami & Papi About Anything, but there is an assumption that speaking to them about everything, we should speak to them and speaking to them is better than not speaking. And that speaking to them will lead to resolution and understanding. But I don't think that's often the case.
Lantigua: Say more.
Li: I think for Julie specifically here, I think there needs to be a conversation she has with herself about this experience she's had in childhood that continues to be with her. How does she make sense of it? What meaning does she make of it unconsciously? And maybe there needs to be a meaning that she needs to undo. And how does she understand what her mother did? How can she see her mother with adult eyes? I often find that once people have a better sense of that conversation they have with themselves, then things become clearer about how they want to take it forward, whether it's to converse with their parents or not.
Lantigua: I don't disagree. I think that's hard and it can be disappointing, but I don't disagree.
Li: Yeah. And it's painful because most of us want to be known, to be known and to be delighted and especially by our parents. How cool you're doing that. That's so interesting. But often that might not happen and it is disappointing, but that doesn't mean that there's no relationship. Right. It just means that there might be coming to terms with the relationship, the type of relationship that is possible with our parents given who they are, what they've been through, who we are, the differences, but it gives room to more possibility.
Lantigua: Thank you so much. I really have enjoyed this conversation.
Li: Welcome. Thank you so much.
Lantigua: All right. Here's what we learned from Yin today. Notice your resistance. Feelings of anxiety or tightness in the body often signal an unconscious aversion to something. Becoming aware of this can help you better understand why a particular situation causes you so much stress. Look at the symbolism. Because of the way you grew up and the different experiences you and your parents have, you all might interpret a situation, and action, or even an object in completely different ways. Do not assume that you're all on the same page about what they mean. And remember, have a conversation with yourself. Even before speaking with parents, spend time reflecting on your own. This will help you see the possibilities of how to move forward and the type of relationship that's possible with your parents.
Lantigua: Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing us. Thank you for coming on the show, for those of you who've come on the show. How to Talk to Mami & Papi About Anything is an original production of LWC Studios. Virginia Lora is the show's producer, Kojin Tashiro is our mixer. Manuela Bedoya is our social media editor. I'm the creator Juleyka Lantigua. On twitter and Instagram we're @talktomamipapi. Please follow us and rate us on Apple Podcast, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts. Bye everybody. Same place next week.
CITATION:
Lantigua, Juleyka, host. “Mom is Upset About Her Gift (Hint: It’s Not About the Gift)'”
How to Talk to [Mamí & Papí] About Anything,
LWC Studios., January 3, 2022. TalkToMamiPapi.com.