Jor grew up in a very religious Indian family. Coming out to himself and to his parents took years. And, Aruna Rao, who guides South Asian LGBTQ+ individuals and their families, helps us accept and affirm our loved ones' identities.
Jor Gonsalves is the host of Unshaming, a podcast about representation and storytelling. You can listen wherever you get your podcast.
Featured Expert:
Aruna Rao is the proud mother of a transgender child. She serves on the steering committee of API Rainbow Parents of PFLAG NYC and is the founder of Desi Rainbow Parents & Allies, an organization for South Asian immigrants with LGBTQ children that fosters understanding and acceptance among South Asian families, with the goal of affirming and celebrating LGBTQ+ individuals. She has developed culturally sensitive and innovative networks for South Asians and is developing training for a peer-to-peer support network. She has spoken and promoted family acceptance at venues such as the Philadelphia Transgender Wellness Conference, Gender Conference NYC, In My Mind: A Mental Health Conference for LGBTQ People of Color and the National Queer API Alliance conferences. Aruna was the Associate Director of NAMI NJ for 18 years, where she founded SAMHAJ, a program to provide support and education for South Asian immigrants affected by mental illness. Learn more about the work they do on their website, here.
We’d love to hear your stories of triumph and frustration so send us a detailed voice memo to hello@talktomamipapi.com. You might be on a future episode! Let’s connect on Twitter and Instagram at @TalkToMamiPapi and email us at hello@talktomamipapi.com. And follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts.
Juleyka Lantigua-Williams:
Hi, everybody. Today, I’m speaking with Jor. He comes from an Indian Catholic family and partly because of his upbringing, he was deeply ashamed of his sexual orientation. As a young college student, he finally decided to open up and come out to his family. Let’s get into it.
Jor: My name is Jor Gonsalves. I live in New York City and I’m the host of a new podcast called Unshaming. I call my mom mommy and I call my dad pa. I think that I knew that I was gay at around 14 years old. I denied it for several years. I tried to tell myself, “Oh, maybe it’s a phase.” But then once I got into college, I for sure knew, “Okay, I’m gay.” My parents had worshipped Freddy Mercury from Queen because he was from India and he became one of the greatest rock stars in the world, and my dad was a musician, and I think that was maybe the only gay person that they really knew of in pop culture, and he had a promiscuous lifestyle and died of AIDS. I think something that they had always thought was something that was subconsciously passed on to me, was that to be gay meant leading a life of disease, of loneliness, of darkness, and to really not have access to these meaningful relationships.
So, although I knew that I was gay, I never really wanted to admit that to myself. But when I was 21 years old, I got an amazing opportunity to go intern in Silicon Valley, in San Francisco, when I was in college, and I thought to myself, “Okay. Come on, Jor. You have to be out.” So, I decided to come out and I ended up falling in love that summer, and through that relationship I had come out to the people that I loved. But I didn’t really have that bravery inside of me without that relationship.
The first person I told was my brother. My brother is one of my best friends and we talked about when I would tell my parents for a few months. At that time, I was a college student, so I hadn’t seen my parents in almost… I want to say two years at that point. And my brother had just gotten engaged. He’s in the Navy and he lives… He’s stationed in Hawaii, so we were going to meet his fiancé. We were all going to be together. It was gonna be this big family reunion for Thanksgiving. And my brother had asked me, “Please don’t do this. This is my moment to introduce my future wife to the family.”
But it was just way more complicated than that. I at that point had been very much in love with my partner. I’d been dating him for several months and I felt like I was living a double life. I couldn’t do that anymore and I didn’t know when the next time was that I was going to see them, and it was not something that I could have done over the phone.
I waited until the day before I left. I took my mom by the hand in our hotel room, and I sat her down, and the first words I said were, “I’m in love.” That’s great. With who? And I said, “I’m gay.” My father came out of the bathroom and he broke the silence, and I remember my mom telling him, “Your son has something to tell you.” And there was a moment when I could see in his eyes the deer caught in headlights. I always held this pressure on myself, and I wore it like a really heavy coat, that I never wanted to disappoint them. And I had always associated being gay with the ultimate disappointment.
I can really boil it down to two buckets. The first is me being Indian. The Indian culture is a culture full of taboos. It’s a lot easier to gossip and judge people than it is to be direct. And that really prevents people from having open dialogues, particularly around sexuality. Being gay, that really was never even talked about at all. The other bucket was being Catholic, because church was such a big part of our culture in our family, and there was no one in my family that was gay or who had ever gone outside of what we had considered the norm of sexuality to be.
So, my shame came from a lot of different areas. I broke my parents’ heart. But in that moment, I know that I had developed a confidence in myself, realizing that I’m gonna do this because I believe that even if you aren’t going to be here for me, I’m going to be here for me, and that was the first time in my life that I had felt that way.
Lantigua-Williams:
Jor’s journey to self-acceptance really inspires me. As he began to love who he was, he gained courage to speak his truth. A truth that no one had spoken before in his family. And he was willing to risk rejection from his loved ones to be himself. But what can we, as relatives, as sisters, and brothers, and parents, and uncles, what can we do to foster environments that are more conducive, more accepting, where our loved ones can feel safe and supported? Where they can really come to who they are, and love who they are, and all our differences? Lots of questions, so I did what I always do. I called in an expert.
Aruna Rao: My name is Aruna Rao, and my pronouns are she, her, and hers. I am the founder and executive director of an organization called Desi Rainbow Parents & Allies. It’s an organization for South Asian families with LGBTQ children and the organization was founded out of my own struggles and efforts to support myself and my family when my kid came out as queer and transgender.
Lantigua-Williams:
When you listened to Jor’s story, what did you hear?
Rao: So, I heard so many familiar things. One that really struck me and which I hear in so many young folks’ stories is the sense of being a disappointment to his parents.
Lantigua-Williams:
There’s also a journey to acceptance in the story that he tells.
Rao: Yes, yes. And I felt that that was such a beautiful thing, for him to feel that regardless of what his family thought, he still felt that he was on his way toward self-acceptance. The fact that he’s thinking about it and trying to separate what other people think of him from what he thinks of himself, I think was a really important piece. And really, something that many people aspire to but don’t necessarily get to.
Lantigua-Williams:
So, you focus specifically on South Asian families and in supporting them. Why focus on that population and what particular characteristics or factors in those cultures make it especially difficult for parents to come to acceptance of their queer children?
Rao: First, the reason that I felt the need to create something just for South Asian immigrants was based on my own experience of trying to seek support and finding mainstream resources like PFLAG but finding myself the only Brown immigrant mother in that space. And of always having to feel uncomfortable in speaking about who I was. The other thing that happens to a lot of immigrant families in general, I don’t think this is necessarily true just for South Asian families, is that we are sort of in a time warp. When we immigrate, we carry these feelings and thoughts with us about what is our culture, what is our background, what do we stand for?
So, for instance, the India of my childhood has dramatically changed. The landscape has shifted. I no longer recognize a lot of things when I visit. But my concept of what is India, what is Indian culture, is still the same. So, when we raise our children, if we immigrated in the 1970s, we’re raising them from the 1970s India, or Pakistan, or Bangladesh that we remember, and so on and so forth. So, while I’m so excited to see all the countries of India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh have really advanced in terms of transgender rights, the immigrant population living in the United States and Canada has not advanced in their thinking.
So, we raise our children to be ashamed because it’s not Indian culture, or South Asian culture to be gay or transgender.
Lantigua-Williams:
Okay. So, I’m gonna play a little bit of a contrarian here because in many sectors of Indian society, there are entire communities of people who have special roles. Not just cultural roles, but very significant and important roles in different societies because they represent a different gender.
Rao: Yeah. I would actually argue here that first of all, the category of trans doesn’t necessarily fit the third gender communities of South Asia. I think that’s a modern, contemporary version of how we view gender, and the communities in South Asia, Hijra communities, Kinnar communities, Jogappas, they are a very complex mix of identity. It’s not just about identifying as a different gender. Not everybody… I mean, some people will call themselves trans. Many won’t. And also, while they have culturally defined roles, they’re still very much marginalized. They fulfill perhaps a ritual purpose, but they are not your family. That’s a very different orientation from thinking, “Oh, you know, this is a valued and important member of the community.” Third gender communities in South Asia don’t get that.
Lantigua-Williams:
Okay, so let me ask about the work that you’re doing today with families. Do you start talking with the parents? Do you start talking with the child? How do you begin the work and then how does the work progress?
Rao: So, typically in the last couple of years, it has actually been the LGBTQ person, the child who reaches out, and typically they’re in their twenties, thirties, younger folks who are just facing this dilemma, like Jor for instance, of coming out, of having partners acknowledged, of just kind of addressing this, and their parents are in shock, so they reach out. So, they look around for a resource and reach out.
But increasingly, I’m really heartened to see this. In the last year, I have seen a lot of younger families. That is parents with school-age children who are reaching out for support when their child is still sometimes in elementary school or middle school.
Lantigua-Williams:
So, what is your very first piece of advice to these families?
Rao: Yeah. The first thing I say is to speak less and listen more to your child, because many of us have these instinctive reactions which can be so hurtful to your child. So, these are the reactions which are no, it’s not possible. The mildest thing you could say is, “Oh, it’s just a phase.” And I’ve heard worse things, like this is disgusting, it’s horrible, you’re imagining this, or you’re trying to kill me. Many times it’s all sort of turned around to you’re doing this to do something bad to me, the parent.
So, my first piece of advice is just listen to what your child has to say, speak less, and don’t blurt out the first thing that comes to mind, because this could break your relationship with your child. The second thing is what are the ideas you grew up with about what LGBTQ identity is about and what is the contemporary understanding of that? And what are the rights and the access to resources that the LGBTQ community has, particularly in the United States, that you may not be aware of?
You know, you don’t need to feel that you and your child will perpetually need to stay hidden. You can be in the light. And very importantly, the dreams that you had for your child are not necessarily like dreams that you have to throw out of the window. Because when my kid came out to me, my first reaction was my kid will never have children. And that was just sort of ignorance, because obviously as I learned more, I know that my child can build a family in multiple ways.
Lantigua-Williams:
I want to go back to something really important that you said, which is that sometimes parents make it about them. How do you help parents to get out of that mode of thinking, that it’s about them?
Rao: Usually, I try to address it from think about your child’s future and your child’s wellness. I try to kind of like make them realize that the child’s experience of this trauma is something that they’re going to carry for the rest of their lives. They’re gonna carry this burden of I hurt my parents who I love so much. And when it kind of drags on, because frankly I have spoken to people where this family dynamic of, “I can’t talk about it because it’s hurting me,” drags on for decades. And it is toxic and really painful and hurtful all around.
So, at that point, my advice is step away from each other. Step away from each other because it’s the only way either one of you can survive through this. But I think most people, when they start thinking more about their child’s wellness rather than their own, and not even the… They’re not even thinking about their own sadness. They’re thinking about shame. Because they’re worried about what the community thinks of them. So, you have to kind of shed that feeling of the community’s opinion is more important than what your child needs.
Lantigua-Williams:
Yeah. I’m really thankful that you are also really open about sometimes there has to be a break, because everyone deserves to feel safe and to feel like they can be themselves fully. And if that means that you guys walk away for a while, or forever, then maybe that’s what it is. And it’s hard for immigrant families, especially in enclaves that are multigeneration, to think about breaking from that community. You know, because sometimes you do, you have to pick your kid over everybody else. Period.
Rao: Yeah.
Lantigua-Williams:
So, how can families, before a child comes out to them, foster an environment in which a child who is different will feel comfortable embracing that difference, and speaking openly about it, and coming to their parents about those initial feelings of insecurity, or uncertainty, or just exploration?
Rao: You know, there are subtle ways or not so subtle ways that you can kind of convey the message that you are perfectly okay with LGBTQ identity. You, for instance, are okay with watching a movie that features gay characters, or you actually sort of maybe encourage the family to go out and see a Pride flag raising in your community. And one of the things that actually I think many families now are confronting is that there is so much information about trans children in the news right now, the slew of anti-trans bills that are being passed around the country, so anybody who keeps up with the news can actually find a topic to talk about, you know?
So, I think just creating an affirming atmosphere overall would make a big difference to your child’s ability to feel that you won’t reject them.
Lantigua-Williams:
So, I want to talk a little bit about gender roles. Is there a broader conversation that families should be having early on about gender roles and then how do they also exemplify that, show that through their behavior and the things that are normal in their families?
Rao: One of the things that happens in so many families, and particularly South Asian families that I’m aware of, is that women are facing this huge overload of tasks that they’re supposed to take on, right? You’re essentially supposed to fulfill all the traditional gender roles of being a wife, and a mother, or a daughter, or whatever it is that you are, and in addition, you have to do well at school, and you have to have a job, and you have to kind of bring in a paycheck and all these things. So, our work has increased because we’re not stepping away from the traditional roles, but we are asked to assume more.
So, I think all of these things I think really need to be very clearly addressed when children are young. There’s a sense of like the girl is the bearer of tradition, and so kind of trying to make sure that girls understand that it’s not just your responsibility to carry culture and tradition forward. You can also be who you need to be.
Lantigua-Williams:
Thank you so much. This has been illuminating. Thank you so much.
Rao: Oh, thank you for having me. I really appreciate this.
Lantigua-Williams:
All right, let’s recap what we learned from Aruna. Speak less. If someone is opening up about their sexual identity or orientation, shhh and listen! Let them do the talking first. Normalize being different. Conversations about being queer, about being LGBTQ+, about any difference in identity should be welcomed and embraced. These are topics that we should be talking about all the time, so that we can become comfortable with them, and so that then we can become allies and support systems for our loved ones. And remember, if you are the LGBTQ+ identified family member, walk away if you need to. If someone in your family, in your community, simply cannot be supportive of who you are, it’s okay to prioritize your safety and your comfort. Break away either temporarily or permanently, but please make sure that you find people who not only support you but accept you and love you for who you are.
Lantigua-Williams:
Thank you for listening and for sharing us. How to Talk to [Mamí and Papí] About Anything is an original production of Lantigua Williams & Co. Virginia Lora is the show’s producer. Kojin Tashiro is our mixer. Manuela Bedoya is our social media editor. Cedric Wilson is our lead producer and Jen Chien is our executive editor. I’m the creator, Juleyka Lantigua-Williams. On Twitter and Instagram, we’re @TalktoMamiPapi. Please follow us and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Spotify, or anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts. Bye, everybody. Same place next week.
CITATION:
Lantigua-Williams, Juleyka, host. “Overcoming Shame to Love Who You Are.”
How to Talk to [Mamí & Papí] About Anything,
Lantigua Williams & Co., April 25, 2021. TalkToMamiPapi.com.