Last year, Estefanía had a hard time speaking with her Puerto Rican dad about systemic racism and anti-blackness. She returns to the show as a licensed clinical social worker to share her insights from working through similar issues with her own first-gen clients.
If you loved this episode, listen to Estefanía's original episode, Dad Denies Systemic Racism.
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Juleyka Lantigua:
Hi, everybody. For the next few episodes, we're inviting some of our early guests back on the show for another installment of OG Check-ins. The occasional series where we speak to our OGs, original guests to find out how things have been going since we first spoke. Today, I'm checking in with OG, Estefanía. Estefanía's episode aired on July 20th, 2020. Here's a clip.
Estefanía: There was a school project that we had to do. Like a family tree, probably was like in second grade. And we had a conversation about where we came from and considering that we're light-skinned, my mom is a little darker than my dad and myself. And so I remember one time my mom was like, "Oh no, I'm black." And then my dad was like, "No, you're not." And so we had this frank conversation about, okay, what does it mean to be white? What does it mean to be black? And I became more aware of it.
Lantigua: Estefanía came to the show in the summer of 2020. Our conversation took place amidst the Black Lives Matter demonstrations worldwide. When we spoke, we talked about how her family discussed race and racism when she was growing up. And she also shared some of her struggles speaking to her Puerto Rican dad about discrimination and systemic racism as an adult. Knowing they didn't see eye to eye was really hard for her, so I wanted to check in to see if conversations between them had gotten any easier, or if she'd come to think about them any differently in this past year. Let's get into it.
Estefanía: I’m Estefanía González and I am returning after a while. We are following up on a conversation about race and politics with your parents. And yeah, I'm coming back now as a licensed clinical social worker working in a group, private practice called EMDR and Trauma Therapy Center located in Burbank, California. So yeah, I'm excited to come talk to you.
Lantigua: Welcome back. Thank you.
Estefanía: Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Lantigua: So what have you been up to since we talked last time?
Estefanía: Yeah. So last time we talked, I was on maternity leave. So I was just listening to different podcasts and material and taking it all in, but now I'm actually back at work. So I'm a licensed clinical social worker and I see clients and yeah.
Lantigua: That's wonderful. So you “emerged”?
Estefanía: Yes.
Lantigua: Well, first of all, how's the baby?
Estefanía: He's doing really well. He's about to be two, so.
Lantigua: Not a baby.
Estefanía: Yeah. Time flies.
Lantigua: So when you listened back to your episode after we did it, what were your first impressions?
Estefanía: Yeah, so a couple things took me back. One was I realized that when I shared, I didn't really share too much about how I had a lot of tools. I do have that background in social work. So I actually have a master's in social work, but I think one thing I was reflecting on is that even what I shared, I think it's important to note that I had those tools and it was still hard to have those conversations with my dad. And I think that there might be more people out there that also might have tools like that at their disposal and still find it difficult to have those conversations.
Lantigua: Right. So it's not like you could play Jedi mind tricks on your dad because you have these tools.
Estefanía: Right. Exactly. As much as I want to be objective and not have my emotional stuff get in the way, obviously with my parents and my family, I'm going to love them. And all these emotions take over at times when I'm talking about things that are very passionate to me.
Lantigua: I definitely, definitely agree. And so now you are seeing clients and do you find that some of the growth that you had to go through because of the difficulty of having to talk to your dad about this has helped in how you have these conversations? Do you see some similarities in the conversations that you're having with your clients?
Estefanía: Yes, actually. It's been really interesting, especially just talking with colleagues and then with my clients. I see the Latinx population primarily and so a lot of first generation individuals are coming to therapy and a lot of the things that are coming up are the things that kind of we discussed about. There's been kind of a reawakening of values and where people stand on certain issues. And now having these conversations, people are seeing the true colors, let's say, of a lot of their close community. And so now, what does that mean to them and what do they do with that information? And that has been a lot of the conversations in the therapy room that have been going on.
Lantigua.: I'm curious, did your dad hear the episode?
Estefanía: I didn't mention it to him because honestly, there was one thing that the expert did say that I think rang true in my experience, was that at the time when I did the interview with you guys, my parents and I were not in a good place. We were trying to, not salvage, but definitely maintain a connection despite issues that were coming up in our relationship. We were not in a space to really listen to each other and really empathize with the points being made.
We're in a much better place now so I think now the conversations, when they come up, we're more aware of the boundaries I think. I think that's one thing I've learned in my personal experience. There's a certain point we can get into the conversation and once we realize, oh, this is not productive. Okay. Let's just shut it. If we want to maintain our relationship.
Lantigua: So you sort of made peace with the fact that you might not be able to persuade your dad specifically.
Estefanía: Right.
Lantigua: And he's made peace with the same.
Estefanía: Yeah. And I think, and that's a hard place to come to, to be honest, because you care so much about your parents and your family and your family of origin and to get to a place where you're like, “Wow, I'm who I am because of how they raised me, because of who they are and now we don't see eye to eye.” And that hurts, but I think there's growth in knowing that your example, they kind of see how you live your life and how that affects others. And that's one way of advocating for your rights and your beliefs in the mission. Right?
Lantigua.: So the other thing that I found really surprising in our conversation was that your dad quite literally negated your mom's right to call herself...
Estefanía: Right. And that was actually something that listening back to it... Because I remember when you had asked me the question, I was just kind of sharing an anecdote of something that happened regarding race and until you pointed it out, I was like, oh man, I didn't realize that he did that. And yeah, I think it's eye opening. And I mean, I think that shows how my dad views things and I think it's just the anti-blackness that we have in a lot of our communities and it does need to be called out.
Lantigua: Is it something that they talk about? And let me explain what I mean, like the current political environment is volatile because so much has been dredged up because of police brutality against black people, because of the taking of innocent lives, because of all the protesting that's been going on and it is everywhere. Right. It is just in the atmosphere. So do they talk about it among themselves? Has the environment raised their awareness?
Estefanía: Yes. I mean, so I think the conversations in the past were easier to ignore because it wasn't in your face. I think now they have been talking about it, but I think misinformation or just where they're getting that information from really kind of guides their mentality about it. So I think that's really key in understanding where these beliefs and views are coming from a lot at the time.
Lantigua: So the other thing that, for, at least for me has come up when I try to have these conversations with my mom, is that sense of, “well, those things happen to other people.” There's that distinction and almost that superiority like, “well, bad things happen to bad people.” And I remember that your dad said something like, "As long as you just do your work, obey the law, be respectful." Has he moved from that sentiment in light of, I mean, everything that's been going on?
Estefanía: I think he's starting to see, the little conversations that we keep having, I think he's starting to see that systems can be flawed and that sometimes they work against certain people. So I think that's progress in the conversations, but I think it's still hard for him to see that it could happen to you and it could happen to anyone. I think we haven't connected the dots all the way just yet.
Lantigua: All right. So now that you are, you could be our expert. Let's pull up a chair with the licensed clinical social worker. In your opinion, when people are trying, because they have a genuine interest and also because they might live with their parents or they might be in much closer proximity to their parents, so it's almost unavoidable. So when they are trying to prepare for these conversations, what would you recommend they do to prepare and then in the process of trying to have these conversations?
Estefanía: Yeah. I think one thing is emotionally and mentally preparing yourself for those conversations. Not only preparing what you're going to say and the facts and all that stuff, but really prepare yourself to be open to a conversation because if you want to have a conversation, it's going to be a two way dialogue. But if you come in thinking like, oh, I have to push my point, my point of view, my perspective-
Lantigua: I have to win this debate.
Estefanía: Exactly. If you come at it as a debate, which a lot of us do when we come to these issues, the other person is already going to be off, they're not going to be willing to listen because they're like, "Oh, this is just another lecture." I think if you allow for them to share like, "Well, I believe this because I heard it on the news." Or, "I see this in real life." Or whatever, and you can kind of let them kind of share first. Then you kind of see, oh, you can kind of come about the conversation a little differently if you understand where they're coming from. And I think a lot with our parents, they might not feel heard or they might feel a little anxious because they might not have all the tools that we have. We're all savvy with technology. We kind of know where to look things up and they might not have that same ability.
Lantigua: And then what happens when you just meet with resistance over and over and over again? Do you just move out?
Estefanía: Right. I think it's a matter of knowing how much you can tolerate the resistance. As soon as you start feeling your body get anxious, tense, stressed, that should be a red flag for you that you're not going to be entering calm waters. You're about to enter that debate territory. So you might want to like take a moment, breathe and then decide what direction you want to go into.
Lantigua: Yeah, definitely. Anything else you'd like to share in terms of acceptance? Because I think for many of us, sometimes that's the only recourse we have.
Estefanía: That's really important. Acceptance. Yeah, you have to kind of come to peace with you're not going to be able to change everyone's minds, everyone's heart. You have to accept that they're going to come to their own conclusion despite what information you provide them. And that is a journey in itself to get to that point. So it's just a matter of working at it and reflecting, journaling, figuring out how you get to the ideas that you get to. And really providing empathy, I think is key when having these conversations with others and you know, some people are ready to listen and some people are ready to change their perspective, but it takes a while to get there. So you have to also come to terms that you might not be at a, they might not and you might not be at a space where you can be willing to listen to a different point of view.
Lantigua: Yeah. Estefanía, you're a gem. Thank you so much for coming back.
Estefanía: Yeah, no, thanks for having me. This was fun.
Lantigua: If you haven't yet listened to Estefanía's original episode called Dad Denies Systemic Racism, you can find it in our feed and on our website. And we've also linked to it in the episode notes.
Thank you for listening and for sharing us. How to Talk to Mamí and Papí About Anything is an original production of LWC Studios. Virginia Lora is the show's producer. Kojin Tashiro is our mixer. Manuela Bedoya is our social media editor. I'm the creator, Juleyka Lantigua. On Twitter and Instagram, we're @TalkToMamiPapi. Please follow us and rate us on Apple Podcast, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, anywhere you listen to your favorite podcast. Bye everybody, same place next week.