We check in with our first guest ever. When we spoke with Sandra, she told us she can't say no to her mother. Living through the pandemic in NYC gave her plenty of opportunities to practice.
If you loved this episode, listen to Sandra's original episode, Mom Drove into NYC Amid the COVID-19 Crisis.
We’d love to hear your stories of triumph and frustration so send us a detailed voice memo to hello@talktomamipapi.com. You might be on a future episode! Let’s connect on Twitter and Instagram at @TalkToMamiPapi and email us at hello@talktomamipapi.com. And subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts.
Juleyka Lantigua-Williams:
Hi, everybody. Juleyka here. For the past few episodes, I’ve been checking in with some of our OGs, original guests. We want to know how things are going. What’s life like since we last spoke? On this episode, I’m speaking with our very first guest ever, and pretty much the inspiration for the whole show. She’s a beloved friend of mine, so we called her Sandra on episode one to protect her privacy and to protect me from her mom, who has my phone number.
Sandra’s episode aired on May 2nd, 2020. Here’s a bit of what she had to say then.
Sandra: My name is Sandra, and I’m Dominican, and in my family, we call our parents Mamí and Papí. So, my mother and her husband have a second home in Florida, and they were there for the winter, and the minute the city closed down and put everybody on quarantine, she decided to rent a car, have my brother rent a car, and they wanted to drive up. And I said, “Absolutely not. Absolutely not. You cannot do this. This is not something that makes sense. You are both 74 and 75. You are at risk. Do not come.” They’re like, “Fine, fine.”
And so, they agreed that day, and then three days later, they had my brother call again and rent the car again. This time they did not tell me. Once they got here, we had a huge argument, and like yelling at the top of our lungs on the phone.
Lantigua-Williams:
When we invited Sandra back to the show, I wanted to know how it’s been with her mom through the pandemic and the amount of lockdown. They’ve been in New York the whole time. But what I really wanted to know was if she still feared that her Latina card might be taken away. Let’s get into it.
Sandra: Hi. My name is Sandra. The last time I was on the show I spoke about how my mother drove from Florida to New York City during the pandemic after I explicitly asked her not to and I’m happy to be back on the show. Let’s talk about it.
Lantigua-Williams:
Welcome back. So, you had a chance to hear your testimony from nine months ago. Did anything strike you as you heard yourself tell that story?
Sandra: Yes. Well, the first thing that came to mind was my Latina identity card. That was interesting to consider how much value I put on my… Cultural currency is the word I think I used, how that’s wrapped in the manipulative kind of dynamic that I have going on with my mother. And also, the use of the word no as a conversation, just the word itself on either side, so that I found quite interesting in listening to it.
Lantigua-Williams:
It’s been nine months. How’s it been with your mom and the pandemic in New York City?
Sandra: Well, I’m happy to report that I have used no several times and it’s a negotiation, because… and I would say probably more so with myself. I say no and then I have to actually sit in the emotions that come with that, right? The guilt of saying no to my mother. I think it’s been great all in all, considering. I didn’t see her for a very long time, so maybe six months, and then finally when we did see each other, we were masked. I’m always masked around her. So, it’s really… She was consistent about saying that she wasn’t gonna put herself in danger, and so I appreciate that, and so that kind of relaxed me a bit. But it also stressed me out at the same time, because then it was like even when we were being careful, there were always these measures of distance. Which, for someone who’s learning to say no like I am, helped. Helped out a lot.
So, I think things have gotten better, but I’m constantly still trying to figure out how to do, “Yes, and” and in my case it’s, “No, and” and just putting structures around things that I feel have to do with self care, or protecting my mother, or keeping her safe. I find that we’re both kind of negotiating boundaries and we’re both negotiating power and listening to one another and respecting each other’s needs, right?
Lantigua-Williams:
So, here’s the million dollar question. How has she responded? Has she adjusted?
Sandra: Oh, my God. I think she listens, but it brings up a lot of pain to hear your daughter say no, and also she was an educator for many years, and she’s always held positions of authority and is well respected. So, I think the pushback from me is problematic for her, and so there’s always conflict, and I know the original story, we were yelling at the top of our lungs, and it’s changed in that we’re not yelling at the top of our lungs, but we’re still talking over each other and speaking very strongly, but respectfully, and with a lot of frustration, but I think the love is still there and it’ll be a process, but I think it’s moving. I think it’s good overall.
Lantigua-Williams:
Okay. Have you found that this practice of saying no and the practice of putting some of your needs ahead of other people’s needs has carried over into other aspects of your life?
Sandra: Yes. Oh, my goodness. Absolutely. I didn’t realize how, “No, and” was gonna benefit me. When I thought about time for myself, I would think in typical scenarios. You know, vacation, weekends, but then I found myself during the pandemic working all the time, and so being able to say no to my children, being able to say no to Zooms for my birthday was a big deal. I didn’t do a Zoom for my birthday, but I created a Google form where I asked friends and family to send a song and make a playlist, and then I danced the night away, right? It was fun and it was interactive, but there was some resistance to that from family who were like, “A Google form? What? What are you doing?”
But I was like, “Okay. We’re gonna try something else.” For me, it’s been good. I would have normally not done that. I would have acquiesced to whatever my community wanted. Whereas now, I’ve kind of shifted gears a little bit. You know, since our conversation, I have to say it’s been… It rose up. It bubbled up to the point where I needed to pay attention to using no, from my mom, to my kids, to my professional relationships. And so, that’s been a significant change.
Lantigua-Williams:
So, Sandra, the expert that I interviewed for your show, Evelynn Hernandez-Brown, she really emphasized the importance of responding versus reacting. And that was so helpful to me, because I do both, but I don’t think that I am aware going into my response which one I’m going to employ. And so, that was one of the takeaways for me, because I do also, as a Latina daughter, encounter many situations like you do with your mom. So, I wanted to know if you’ve been able to consciously deploy responding versus reacting, and whether you’ve shared that idea, that point of view, with anyone else who could find it a useful tool.
Sandra: Oh, my God. I’m so glad that you brought that up, because I have been doing it whenever there was something said by my mother that didn’t sit well with me. I would refrain from speaking, like just listen, like put my head down and kind of like manage my reaction, right? And that has been a game changer to the point where when we’re in group spaces with other individuals, they see my physical change and my… They recognize the silence. It’s a slow process with me. I don’t know how… if people are much quicker putting these things in practice, but I think the relationship is so intense between us, and it’s specific to her, I think, and my children, because those are the two people that I’m around the most right now.
But if I were to think about why that is, it’s the power dynamic, right? It’s that parent-child relationship and it’s that generational thing, right? My mother’s from an older generation, very specific way of raising kids, and putting them in check, molding them into what you want them to be, and with me it’s a completely different experience. I departed from that model and it’s really a conversation. It’s engagement. It’s buy-in. It’s investment. It’s an understanding. And so, I’m trying to straddle both, figuring out the power dynamic with all the players in this, and trying to do something different.
Lantigua-Williams:
So, actually let’s talk a little bit about that dynamic with your children, because they’re teenagers. They’re pretty self-aware. They’re smart, savvy, city kids, and your mom sounds like someone who has a great deal of influence and impact on their lives. Have you noticed that you shifting your dynamic with her has impacted their dynamics with her?
Sandra: Yes. Absolutely. I’ve seen them both manage their relationships better and they actually use no so much better, and it’s received much better because I think my mother recognizes that they’re being raised in a time that’s nothing like anything she’s ever experienced. And she was a high school teacher, so she’s dealing with her grandkids are now high school students and that’s her comfort zone, right? She knows how to engage with that population. But I see her actually being much more compassionate and understanding with them, like she approaches a situation with the same framework, with the same mindset she’s always had, but the minute they tell her how they feel, which they do, and she listens, which didn’t happen when I was a child, right? I would ask questions when I was a teenager or I would talk to her and I would be ignored, really. Or spoken to when she was ready and she knew what her answers were going to be.
So, it’s a completely different scenario, what they’re experiencing with her. But it’s been a learning experience for me, because they’re… I’m modeling behavior for them. They’re actually winning, right? Each and every time. And they’re successful. So, for me I’m like, “Oh, wow. This really does work. I just need to do more of the work because it’s an older relationship.” Right? It’s something that I’m paying attention to and I’m learning from them. So, it’s an incredible thing to be able to actually have this time with you guys to reflect on it, but also to be made aware of this in such a way that it becomes conscious.
Lantigua-Williams:
All right, my final question to you is easy and complex, which is do you feel like your Latina card is still threatened by how you manage the relationship?
Sandra: No. No. Yeah, and I learned that. I have to be honest, because I was convinced. I was convinced when I said it that I was gonna lose it, lose my card, and just so you guys know, I said it to you guys. That was the first kind of revelation of this Latina card. It wasn’t like I had used that. That wasn’t a thing that I said all the time, right? That was a surprise to me, that I was holding so tightly to my identity in that way. I’m realizing that that’s… The card is agile, right? It has some transformative properties. It changes and shifts into what it needs to be and there are those connections that make us… those connections to our family that make us Latinos, right? That we can create community around language, and words, and experiences with our parents that are so familial, and I feel like that outweighs every transformation, everything that happens in life that challenges my culture. My culture shows up and kind of shows up in a different way, but it doesn’t disappear for me.
I feel that it’s as strong as it ever was and it wasn’t compromised in any way, so you know, I learned that.
Lantigua-Williams:
That’s wonderful.
Sandra: Yeah, I learned that, so I really appreciate that. I have to say my mind has been changed. It’s not either-or, right? It’s not cut and dry. Life is a transformational experience. It’s a journey. And so, I was thinking to myself, “Well, I haven’t lost anything by telling my mother no. If anything, I’ve opened up new ways of being with her and experiencing her, because now I’m working towards having her respect my point of view in a way that affects her life.” I don’t lose anything. I don’t lose being her daughter. I don’t lose that familial contact, that cultural currency. I’m not losing it, it’s just changing. And that’s okay. That’s part of the relationship, as well.
It still makes me just as Latina as I ever was before, just because I’m holding true to who I am, and what I want, and what my needs are.
Lantigua-Williams:
We’re so happy that we got to be a small part of that. Thank you for being our first guest. You’re always welcome here.
Sandra: Thank you guys. I feel like a lot of the insight and the transformation that I’ve experienced during this time has been because of these conversations, right?
Lantigua-Williams:
Love it. My friend is growing up and maturing right before my eyes.
Sandra: Thank you guys! You guys are wonderful.
Lantigua-Williams:
If you haven’t yet listened to Sandra’s original episode, called Mom Drove Into New York Amid the COVID-19 Crisis, you can find it on our feed and on our website. It’s the very first episode of the show.
How to Talk to [Mamí and Papí] About Anything is an original production of Lantigua Williams & Co. Virginia Lora produced this episode. Kojin Tashiro mixed it. Manuela Bedoya is our social media editor. Cedric Wilson is our lead producer. I’m the show’s creator, Juleyka Lantigua-Williams. On Twitter and Instagram, we’re @TalktoMamiPapi. Please, please, please, please, please subscribe, and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Spotify, or anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts. Bye, everybody. Same place next week.
CITATION:
Lantigua-Williams, Juleyka, host. “OG Check-in: My Boundaries, My Mom—During the Pandemic.”
How to Talk to [Mamí & Papí] About Anything,
Lantigua Williams & Co., February 22, 2021. TalkToMamiPapi.com.