Alex is doing his best to ease tensions and make sure everyone gets along while he and his long-time girlfriend save for a house. And Omar Torres, a licensed psychotherapist, talks to us about navigating cohabitation dynamics.
Featured Expert:
Omar Torres is a licensed Clinical Social Worker based in NYC. His approach to therapy focuses on integrating the various aspects of personal identity and improving his client’s insight to help them lead a more authentic and fulfilled life. His techniques including: CBT, Motivation Interviewing, and Gestault therapy with emphasis on Psychodynamic and interpersonal approaches. In his work, Omar aims to increase his clients’ awareness of behavioral patterns that may be engrained or dynamics from prior relationships that may be inhibiting their personal growth. Learn more about his work here.
If you loved this episode, be sure to listen to Telling Them I'm Moving in With Boyfriend and When Parents Going Back 'Home' Changes Everything.
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Juleyka Lantigua:
Hi everybody. Today, we welcome Alex. Alex plans to buy a home with his longtime girlfriend. But in the meantime, they're living with his mother. Alex senses some tension and pressure points between them, but he's on a mission to make the experience as pleasant as possible for these two very important women in his life. Let's get into it.
Alex: My name is Alex Castro. I am a first generation Central American from Miami, Florida. And, in my family, we call my parents Ma and Pa. I moved around after college. I went to the Midwest for law school. After law school, I moved out west, to San Francisco, and lived there for about three years as well. In those three years I also lived with my girlfriend, who moved out there with me in San Francisco. As of recently, we both moved back to South Florida. It's been two months now, we've been living at home with my mother. The plan was originally to stay with family for a little bit. It would allow us to save some money, not rush into signing somewhere,. Take that next step in our relationship of purchasing property and owning something that's ours. We knew, going in, that it was either going to be her family or mine. And just luck, happened to be mine. I was very hesitant and very worried before making that move, just because I haven't lived home for about 10 years. And so adding on that extra layer of moving in with my girlfriend, also made things a little bit more complex.
The living dynamic is very different. My mother has her ways of doing things, and I think any family does, whether it's something as small as what type of food she's going to cook, to the way that she maintains her house. My girlfriend and I are used to a different lifestyle. We don't like to wear shoes in the house because we like to keep a clean floor, or we like to eat out every once in a while and not have to worry about food type of thing. My girlfriend is also used to a very different household, growing up. In her family, even as an adult, she's used to her parents cooking every single meal for her, to doing her laundry, to not having to lift a finger in the house, because she's the youngest that they always take care of.
Alex: Whereas, for my mother, it's: as long as you can stand and your arms are working and your feet are working, then you're an adult and you can cook your own meals and do your own laundry. Don't get me wrong, she's happy to help out. But the expectation isn't there that she will be doing everything.
Having two women that I care for very deeply, and living in the same house, that have very different backgrounds and ideas of their lifestyle, I've definitely played the mediator. There are differences that I have to explain. And so I've definitely had to sit with my mother, from the very beginning, and explain that there is some sort of different ways we would like to operate and, in quotations, "set boundaries." Healthy boundaries that we will respect of hers and that she will respect of ours so that we can co-live and coexist. Vice versa, with my girlfriend, I've had to communicate to her that this isn't the household where her father is going to cook for her, every meal. And that we have to hold up our own, as much as we can while we can. And that this is temporary.
Alex: My girlfriend hasn't really experienced the history that my mother has gone through, and so it's difficult to understand why she operates the way she does. She became a single parent, raising two kids. That really took a toll on her. And after many years of family therapy, she's definitely grown as a person. She still has a little bit of that resistance in letting other people in as easily as she would want to. Vice versa, my mother doesn't really understand the history of my girlfriend's past, any childhood trauma that she's gone through. It's been something that we have to tippy-toe around because I can't be the one to share that story. It's not mine to share. So I have to, again, play that mediator of, "Well, you need to understand where she's coming from. And you need to understand where she's coming from."
Alex: The relationship between my mother and my girlfriend is existent, but not strong. They mutually respect each other. They both realize and respect the fact that they are both important to me. And so they both definitely make the effort to get to know each other and to understand each other. But it may be uncomfortable for them to have to establish that relationship and foster it into something more than what it is now. My mother is of the very traditional sense, it should be a submissive woman who listens and obeys. Whereas, my girlfriend is a very, very, very modern and progressive woman, which I admire and I respect of her, which is why we're together. And so balancing those two very different dynamics, I've learned a lot. I do think that I will need to play more of a role in fostering and caring for that relationship.
Lantigua: I'm not going to lie, I was stress hearing Alex talk about his home life. But I was also impressed by his self-awareness and touched by his concern for his mom and his girlfriend.
Lantigua: How can first gens help a partner and a parent get along, especially under one roof? To help us out, I called in an expert.
Omar Torres: My name is Omar Torres. I use he/him pronouns. And I am a licensed clinical social worker, or psychotherapist, here in New York City. And I am half Dominican and half Puerto Rican.
Lantigua: Whoop whoop, my people. I have to. Sorry.
Torres: That's all right.
Lantigua: So tell me, as you listened to Alex's story, what did you hear?
Torres: Oh, gosh, I heard a lot. Essentially, what I heard was someone that felt stuck in the middle, someone feels caught in the middle between two people that he cares about very, very much. And he's doing his best to try and make sure everyone's happy. And it sounds like, in an attempt to make sure that everyone is happy, no one is happy, and everyone is basically struggling with the choices that they made. Probably because they are thinking, "Well, the other person is the problem."
Lantigua: I think part of what I heard was that there were no expectations set at the beginning, when this arrangement was made. Talk to me a little bit about expectation setting when there's a cultural and a generational gap, which is very apparent here.
Torres: Music to my ears, expectation setting. It's a collaborative process. That's really, really important to highlight. It's almost like a brainstorming session, where everyone gets to talk about, "Here's what you can expect from me. And here's where there's wiggle room. Here's where I'm willing to bend a little bit."
Lantigua: Okay. So compound question for you. One, you have the advantage of professional training and vast experience. So that's a high bar that you've set for us. How do mere mortals achieve this? And then two, from what you just said I gather that there should be a scale, from top priority, to mid-range priority, to lower priority, when we're setting up these expectations. Can you talk to me about both of those?
Torres: Yeah, absolutely. So for mere mortals, I would recommend starting just with, "Here's my hope. Here's how I hope things go." And to also make sure, especially in this situation, that you express awareness and gratitude. Like, "Mom, I just want you to know we really appreciate what you're doing here. It is not lost on us how meaningful this is and how stressful this might be for you. And so, here are some things that I need you to know about us, like ... I don't know ... we're not going to be home every night. There are going to be some nights where we're out, doing our own thing. And that doesn't mean that we're disrespecting you or that we want to get away from you. This is just how we like to spend time together. And we need a certain amount of privacy." And then bookend it with, "And just to double back, just to remind you, again, thank you so much. We really appreciate what you're doing."
Torres: The scale that you talked about, that develops as the conversation moves along. But be willing to talk a little bit about where there's wiggle room, to talk a little bit about where you're willing to bend or acquiesce a little bit for the sake of the greater good. So that is one thing that I would encourage Alex to maybe explain a little bit more, which is: so what is the goal here, as far as the relationships go? Is it that we're all best friends and every Friday night we have game night and we're drinking and laughing? Or is it to just be civil? Because that's okay too. We don't have to be best friends. We don't have to hang out every Saturday night. It could be simply something that is respectful and civil. And that's okay. So girlfriend and mom don't have to talk every single day and they don't have to form the strongest bond ever. Ideally, I get why that's a lovely thought, right? But-
Lantigua: Yeah. I was going to say, I'm going to push back on that because I'm probably an old-school Dominican in that sense. But this idea that I'm going to be living in an older woman's house, potentially my future mother-in-law, and by default my current mother-in-law; and not see her, not acknowledge her, and not make myself useful, really shaves against everything that I was taught.
Torres: For sure.
Lantigua.: So I think that there's a real discrepancy here, between how we express, "Oh, this is how we do us," versus the, I think, necessary compromises to acknowledge the tremendous generosity and the tremendous sacrifice that is being made for our benefit. And I'm probably going to get angry emails about this, but I feel like, in this case, the girlfriend has to give a little more to even begin to balance out how much she is receiving.
Omar Torres: First of all, I just want to make sure I let everyone know not to send angry emails, because that is a very reasonable approach. It's a perfectly reasonable approach. It's saying, "Listen, I can see the tremendous sacrifice you're making. So I'm going to give, I'm going to show up a little bit harder, a little bit more than I usually would, as a way of showing how appreciative I am."
Omar Torres: Which is fair. And I certainly wouldn't want the girlfriend walking around, pretending like mom doesn't even exist. But, again, as far as the relationship itself goes ... because I remember Alex mentioning something, I believe he was sort of encouraging them to talk to each other and have conversations and get to know each other. Of course, but there are limitations to that. How strong of a relationship is reasonable? And also, mom might not want to be all that close. Mom might be like, "I just need you to clean up after yourself. I don't need to know what you had for breakfast every day." You know what I mean? "I just want to make sure that you are contributing, showing up, and being helpful, and not making this harder for me."
Lantigua: I jokingly said to Alex, when we talked, I was like, "Bro, this is hard. You're trapped between two women who love you intensely. How you doing?"
Torres: Yeah. Can I tell you, my first reaction what I listened to his story was this, "Ooh." It was literally that, "Ooh." I am not envious of his position.
Lantigua: I commended him. I really did. I was like, "I think you are being so graceful and you have such aplomb about the entire situation."
Torres: Yeah.
Lantigua.: But let me ask you this, and I'm asking it because we are grownups and we can acknowledge that men do have preferential treatment, preferential status, and a certain level of privilege in Latino households.
Torres: Oh yeah.
Lantigua.: So do you think he can, should, utilize a little bit of that leverage in this case? And how? And if not, why not?
Torres: Oh gosh. The short answer is yes. I think, when you have privilege, it is incumbent upon you to, I’m using air quotes, "use your powers for good," so to speak.
Lantigua.: Yes.
Torres: Right? So I would be curious to know ... this is just a hypothetical ... if the expectations around, let's say, household chores seem to be falling more so on the girlfriend. I'd be like, "Alex, you need to step up more. You need to help, you know, if this isn't your girlfriend's default, because she grew up in a household where a lot of her needs were taken care of by her caregivers, then you need to team up with her, again, for the ‘greater good.’" And so I think that is one way that he could use his privilege, is by making sure that chores that are often gendered aren't gendered. And that he steps in and says, "You know what, babe? I'll wash the dishes. Don't worry about it. I'll mop the floor, don't worry. I'll do the laundry, don't worry about it." That's one instance, or one example in my mind, that I think of, where Alex, as the man, can use his powers for good, use his privilege.
Lantigua: Wow. We actually found a good use for those.
Torres: Yeah, for once.
Lantigua: You heard it here first ladies and gentlemen, you heard it here first. This might be the chip that cracks the Latino patriarchy.
Torres: Well, just one podcast episode at a time. Chipping away at it, chipping away at it.
Lantigua.: Exactly. Let's wrap-up by talking very concretely about some communication strategies and interpersonal strategies that you think could really help, or just make this whole situation a little bit smoother for everybody.
Torres: For sure. So, first and foremost, I would encourage Alex to lower the stakes. The thing sometimes, we rile ourselves up way more than we need to, and we up the ante when we really don't need to up the ante. So lower the stakes and make sure that your approach isn't super aggressive or angry, or even super anxious. Next, before any conversation that you have, before any attempt at mediating, I would ask yourself: what is your part in this? What is your part in the creation of this dynamic? Because this dynamic would not exist without you. And it can be helpful to reflect on, "Well, here's how I'm contributing to some of the tension that exists." And what a great way to help the other person feel heard and understood, by saying, "You know what, mom? I can understand that this was really upsetting, because I did or didn't do X, Y, and Z. And that's on me." What a great way of opening up the conversation to everyone, exercising agency over their own behaviors and over their own decision-making.
And lastly ... it's easier said than done. And it's easy for me over here to say this ... do as little personalizing as possible. So if someone says, "You never wash the dishes," we hear, "You are the worst person on earth. You're useless. I hate you." That is not what they're saying. But then we respond as if that is what they're saying. So make sure that, if you hear feedback, that you are hearing the feedback as it is. It's about being held helpful. It's about being generous. It's about being appreciative. No one here is out to get anyone. We're all on the same side, essentially.
Lantigua: Oh my goodness. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Loved everything about this conversation. Please, please come back.
Torres: Oh, please. Yeah, have me back anytime. This was lovely. Thank you so much.
Lantigua.: Okay. Here's what we learned from Omar today:
Brainstorm. Setting expectations is a collaborative and creative process. Share your hopes, encourage ideas, and be willing to bend and do things differently.
Leverage your privilege. Looking at you, men. Use your position of power to be a team player and problem solve for the greater good.
And remember, acknowledge your role. Get clear on how you're contributing to the dynamics. Being accountable for your part encourages others to do the same and helps everyone feel seen.
Lantigua: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening and for sharing us. How to Talk to [Mami and Papi] About Anything is an original production of LWC Studios. Virginia Lora is the show's producer. Kojin Tashiro is our mixer. Manuela Bedoya is our marketing lead. I'm the creator, Juleyka Lantigua. On Twitter and Instagram, we're @TalkToMamiPapi.
Bye everybody. Same place next week.
CITATION:
Lantigua, Juleyka, host. “Playing Mediator While Living with His Girlfriend and His Mamí”
How to Talk to [Mamí & Papí] About Anything,
LWC Studios., March 21, 2022. TalkToMamiPapi.com.