How to Talk to [Mamí & Papí] about Anything

She Has a Ph.D, But Papí Still Wants Her to Serve Him

Episode Notes

Kristie just received her doctorate, a milestone that's impacting her father-daughter relationship and revealing tensions in her Mexican-American family around gender roles and expectations. And, psychologist Gabriela Livas Stein comes back to walk us through "selective acculturation" and how to align our family roles with our values.

Featured Expert: 

Our expert this week is Gabriela Livas Stein, Associate Professor of Psychology at University of North Carolina in Greensboro. She received her doctoral degree in clinical psychology with a specialization in child and family psychology from UNC Chapel Hill in 2007. She completed her pre-doctoral clinical internship at University of California, San Diego/VA Consortium followed by a postdoctoral fellowship position at Duke University. Broadly, her research uses developmental psychopathology and cultural-ecological frameworks to investigate the impact of culturally relevant factors on the development of psychopathology for minoritized youth and their families. Dr. Stein’s program of research revolves around three themes: (1) understanding the role of familial cultural values in Latinx families and their impact on the development of Latinx youth, (2) identifying individual risk and protective processes for Latinx and other minoritized youth when facing cultural stressors (e.g., discrimination, acculturative stress), and (3) improving mental health treatment access for Latinx families in community mental health. Learn more about her work here.

If you loved this episode, be sure to listen to When Familism Hurts, and She's Fighting Inherited Gender Roles. 

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Episode Transcription

Juleyka Lantigua-Williams:

Hi, everybody. Today, I’m speaking with Kristie. Kristie just finished her PhD, a lifelong goal for her and her parents. But it’s become clear that she’s still expected to fulfill certain gender roles that contradict other expectations her Mexican American family has had of her for as long as she can remember. All of this is causing friction, especially between her and her dad. Let’s get into it. 

 Kristie: My name is Kristie. I’m from Houston, Texas, currently living in Atlanta, Georgia, and in my family, we call my parents mom and dad. My parents instilled in me, mostly, I’m the older child… They came to America for us, for our education, and we had to do better than them. So, my dad has a bachelor’s degree, and so from an early age we were all told we had to get at least a master’s degree. When I started school, I didn’t speak English, and I was at the bottom of my class, but growing up I was told I could do anything I wanted to. You can do whatever anyone else can do. You can do whatever the boys can do. You could do whatever the white people can do. And I could probably even do it better. There was no expectation of me to do any less than any of the males in the family. 

But then, as I became an adult and in my PhD program, I started to really rely on those things that my parents had told me growing up, because the higher you get in education, higher education, the more white male dominated it is, so I had to keep reminding myself, “I can do it. I can do everything all the white people, the males can do.” I was still expected to fulfill that role as well as you also have to serve the men in your family, you also have to take care of the family, and to me that just became… That has become really confusing and I think maybe for my family, as well. 

So, there’s a situation that I’m thinking of specifically recently. I just graduated and we went to my graduation dinner that I had to find the restaurant, make the reservation. It was very stressful because we didn’t know how many people there were, it was a Friday night, and finally I did it. We sat down and my dad says, “Okay, order for everyone.” And I said, “That is really stressful for me.” Because immediately, people started saying, “I like cheese, I don’t like cheese. I want this. I don’t want this.” And I’m someone who can’t multitask very well, and this was after a week of my parents being with me, as well. But I said, “Dad, I can’t. That’s too much for me. I physically cannot handle that responsibility.” And he said, “Okay, well then you can order for me.” And I said, “No, dad. I don’t want to do that.” And he said, “Well, you have to.” 

The conversation that we were having was about this dinner, but I think it was also much larger than that, and so I said, “I don’t think I do, and I really hope that you will still love me with me not having to serve you.” And you said, “You will always have to serve me. It is your job.” And I said, “It is literally not my job. I just got a PhD in neuroscience.” And what was very interesting to me about that was that my whole life, my parents said, “You will get a job to support yourself, so you don’t need a man, so you don’t need to serve anyone, so you don’t… You will be financially independent. You will not need anyone.” And that was very important to me and that is what I did. And then now it’s like, well, we’re literally celebrating this accomplishment that we’ve all been waiting my whole life for, and he says, “No, it’s your job. You will always be my daughter first.” 

That brought… It brought tears to my eyes. I felt this really conflicting feeling of yes, I will always be your daughter first whenever you need me. Family is a big value of mine, so yes, my family comes first. But no, it’s not my job to serve you. I have a job. I’ve worked really hard to have a job. That one statement was… I still haven’t completely come to terms with it. 

My mom and my dad, their relationship is I’d say pretty traditional. I do think my mom is a very strong woman, but she is expected to serve my dad his meals, let him know when it’s ready. Not before, not after. So, there’s that gender dynamic, and then another thing is my dad is a businessman, so he has secretaries who he is very used to telling what to do, and I actually had a conversation with my mom about this and how I was feeling, and she said, “I often have to remind your dad we are not his secretaries. And I think that you might have to start doing that, as well.” 

My dad and I are a lot alike and we’ve always been very close. He’s one of my favorite people to talk to and I think one of the reasons that we have been very close is because I do what he wants me to do, and so I’m nervous if I speak up, he’ll think I’m not grateful for what they’ve done for me, or… That’s why I said those words. I chose them very specifically. I’d thought about that for a while, like, “I hope you will still love me.” Like, “I hope we can still maintain our relationship and I can be who I need to be to be successful and who I want to be to be happy.” 

You know, they say that if a parent does their job well, too well, they are out of a job, and I sometimes wonder if he feels threatened by that, by you don’t need me anymore. He likes to poke fun at like when I call him to… Because I need help doing something around the house. He likes to poke fun at it, but I think he likes to feel needed, and I think recently I’m getting married, I have my own condo, I just graduated with a PhD, and I do wonder if it’s more of a… It’s a threat to the dynamic of, “I know more than you. You need me. You need my help.” Our relationship as two adults, as adult parent-child, I think is something that I need to develop, and I’m working on it. Our roles are shifting a little bit more where I think he really likes being a dad and I think it makes him sad that maybe I don’t need him as a dad as much anymore, maybe more as a friend. But I also think I will always need him as a dad. 

Lantigua-Williams: 

Kristie’s story highlights how gender roles, especially in some immigrant families, can be tied up in how the family support system works. This makes it hard for first gens like Kristie to reject gendered expectations without feeling like they’re undermining the values they and their family hold dear. To help us figure it out, I called in an expert. 

Gabriela Livas Stein:

I am Dr. Gabriela Livas Stein and I’m a clinical psychologist and an associate professor of psychology at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro. 

Lantigua-Williams:

You listened to Kristie’s story. What did you hear?

Stein: I heard a story that I hear a lot of times in this tension of acculturation of some ways. Those gendered expectations of how one needs to orient to one’s family continue to exist, particularly for women. You know, she’s met their parent goals and expectations around her educational achievement, but now is left struggling with her relationship with her dad and some of that expectation around how she needs to behave in a very gendered way towards them. So, that tension is something we hear so much, particularly from Latina women. 

Lantigua-Williams:

So, doc, what do we do? 

Stein: I think one thing to recognize and to realize, and I really loved how she had a lot of empathy for her dad and understanding this role transition that their family was going through. Some of the amazing work by Celia Falicov has really highlighted that we need to think about family life cycle, where are you in a family life cycle, as you consider how we navigate ourselves culturally. And here’s a really important family life cycle, a role transition. She has her PhD, she’s about to get married, and her dad and her need to renegotiate their relationship in some way. What’s that gonna look like? 

And so, part of it is that she had that empathy and that insight, so now one thing we have to think about is how do we get dad to have that same empathy and insight on her plight, right? How she is needing to navigate that piece. 

Lantigua-Williams:

So, let’s stay on empathy for a little while. Can you help us to turn empathy into action, right? How does that happen from our end so that we can do as much as we can and are willing to do as we help our parents transition through the life cycles of our families, as you just so beautifully put it? 

Stein: Yeah. I think where that piece is, a lot of times families, and we operate out of fears, what we’re worried will happen, right? We worry that if you don’t show this respect, what does that mean for dad? What does that mean about their relationship? So, the action is to say… And she talked a little bit about this. She said… I think she was very careful in her words, like, “I will always be your daughter. I will always honor and respect you. But I also need to honor and respect this part of me that you wanted to grow.” 

And I think really showing those two pieces of how she’s trying to navigate the both and, right? I can do… And I think just even teaching that, that you can do both and. I can be an assertive person and professional and I can also be a respectful daughter, and these can go together, and I can do this both for you. And in some ways, sometimes that is like, “Would you want me at work to be, pisoteda,” right? Would you want people to take advantage of me, or not to hear my opinions, or not to value what I’m bringing to the table? And I think dad would probably say no. And sort of say, “Well, what will that look like in our family? How can I be heard? How can I honor and respect you and how can I show honor and respect… That doesn’t mean I order your food, but what else could I do?” 

So, I think that’s sort of a way to turn that into that action. I show you respect in these ways. I show you love in these ways. And at this role transition, this is how I will continue to ask for your advice, and your support, and you’re still my dad, and you still will help guide me in these ways. 

Lantigua-Williams:

Okay, so I’m actually going to play a little bit of the devil’s advocate here and use the same thought process that you just illustrated and say, “Okay, so you can be this and you can be this, so why can’t you be a PhD and also be my daughter who serves me my dinner?” Talk to me about why that is incompatible for someone like Kristie and the way that she is trying to make her way in the world. And secondly, how can she effectively communicate that? 

Stein: Yes. So, I think the way we can sort of say is what I would sort of say here in this scenario is to say how I feel when I’m asked to do your food. Sometimes two hats are too difficult to change, right? The shift that’s too much. What are other ways I can show you respect and love and how can you show me respect and love? One thing I also thought a little bit about is sort of our cultural sort of machismo kind of ideas of the male hierarchy and the patriarchy and how that ultimately can end up hurting her, right? And so, maybe helping dad see that. Would you want me to have this subservient attitude in other places? And I’m assuming dad would say no. 

But I wonder if the other place they could have that conversation is how she, and I would be very curious how this dad thinks she should relate to her new partner. Does he think that that needs to continue in the same way? Or would he want his daughter to have a more equal relationship with her partner? What does he think about that?

And I think you asked a second question about how does then that relate to what she does, and I think a lot of times, that fear piece, right? The thing we’re scared of is what keeps us from acting in ways that we want to be authentic and then you don’t feel like you get to be your whole self. And I think you sort of say to your dad, what I would say, or what you could say, is say, “You know, I want you to see my full me. I want you to see all parts of who I am. I want you to be able to help me with this,” and pull in that parent role that he still wants, “As I learn to continue to develop into my full self.”

So, I think tying it back that you’ve taught me to be these ways, as well, and is there a way that I can come in in an authentic way to show you you raised me to be strong. I need your help with that. But if I had to do these two… to act in these two very different ways, I can’t use your guidance and your support. You can help me to develop in the ways you wanted me to develop. 

Lantigua-Williams:

So, this story from Kristie exemplifies a lot of the virtues and shortcomings of familismo we’ve talked a lot about and sometimes the tension arises when the older generation believes that some of the gendered expectations that they have are necessary to maintain the familismo that is so rich and so important. So, how can first gens and other people in a family, especially in a multigenerational hyphenated family, how can they emphasize the really great aspects of familismo while advocating for change on the aspects that are just not working in this hyphenated-American context? 

Stein: You know, I was just having this conversation with some clinicians today, that we were talking about the notion of selective acculturation, and this idea that we get to pick and choose which values we want to retain, which ones work for us, which ones are good for us, and which ones we don’t want to retain and keep. And that’s a purposeful kind of a negotiation that we can do, and we can do that at a family level.  And there’s lots of examples for that, right? 

So, one thing about familismo is you should live close to your family, and many families have a border in between them, an ocean between them, because ultimately that was what was in the best interest of the family, right? To support the family even better. We’ve already made choices around which ways we enact familismo in a way to support our communities, so perhaps these gendered expectations can change, too. And I think the other thing I’ve always… My family is from Mexico and when I go back to Mexico, I see a lot of my cousins and aunts embracing sort of gender equality, gender equity, trying to do that, so how… So, it’s a change that’s also happening in our home countries, right? And having examples of that in our home countries and how that works can be helpful. 

Lantigua-Williams:

All right, so first of all, I love selective acculturation. But a term like that implies that certain things might have to be sacrificed, so what do people like Kristie have to be prepared to sacrifice if it’s called upon?

Stein: Yeah. I mean, I think at some level there could be the point where dad holds firm to this sort of gendered expectations and says, “No, I don’t want to see that part of you. I still have these expectations for you with me,” and that maybe dad will feel a sense of sadness, or loss, or withdrawal. But I also feel like if you approach it in a way where you give a space for that, and you give time for that, and you let the Kristie who wants to show up, and be there, and be authentic, and be full, and let him see that person, that maybe he’s gonna come around and see that. Maybe he will see that. And maybe they don’t agree and that might be a point where you can say, “Look, we can disagree. Here are the ways I will still show you love, and support, and here’s how I’m willing to show you that.” 

And I think sometimes what can be also helpful is, and I don’t know if Kristie plans to have children or not, but that would be the other thing, is like, “What kind of role model do I want to show for my daughters?” But I think the sacrifice is sometimes we want empathy from others and sometimes they’re not able to give it to us for whatever reason that is. 

Lantigua-Williams:

My last question goes to that, goes to expectations and roles, so can you help us think through how we can evolve the parental roles? Especially as we become fully independent functioning adults with thriving relationships and thriving careers, how can we say to mom and dad, “Look, I still love you and I still need you, but in this way.” 

Stein: Yeah. I really feel like a lot of this is just explicit conversations that we typically don’t have. We expect people know what it means to be a good son, a good daughter, a good father, a good mother, or what we need from each other in different points, and even just expressing that to say, “This is what I need from you. This is what I need from my dad as I embark in this next stage of my life as a professional, in a partnered relationship. I need XYZ from you.” And that might be like, “I still need to come and enjoy spending time with you, and having cafecito, and having dinner, and compartiendo. Being together and spending time together. That fills me.” 

So, just really being explicit. Or, “I need your advice if I’m struggling at work, and I want someone to talk to.” Or, “I need to know you’re in my corner, that you’re on my side, that this person who’s been my champion and who has pushed me to be my best and I’ve been able to make that, I still need that motivation.” Whatever that might be. Be really explicit about that and what that looks like, because a lot of times we just expect people to know, right? We expect our partners to know what we need. We expect our parents to know. But also, being able to put a boundary if one needs to be put, like to say, “Well, I hear that you need this from me right now and this is the reason why I can’t do this. Here’s what I can do.” 

And I think that’s the different piece. Here is what I will offer you. Because it’s hard. It’s hard. You have a history of a relationship. You have a history of how you communicate with one another and especially I think a lot of times in families, we don’t have these explicit conversations about roles and expectations. 

Lantigua-Williams:

Thank you so much for coming on the show again. It’s so wonderful to get your insight on these things. Thank you so much. 

Stein: No, thank you for having me. That was lovely. 

Lantigua-Williams:

All right, let’s recap what we learned from Gabby. Find alternatives. Once you understand what their expectations are really about, whether it’s about respect, or love, or another family value, offer other ways in which you can show your respect and your love, but make sure that those ways are also aligned with who you are and who you want to be in your family. Bring them in. Point out their influence in the choices that you’re making for yourself and let them know that they can continue to help you grow if you can be allowed to be your full self with them. And remember, be explicit. As your relationship evolves, instead of expecting them to know what you need from them as parents, speak openly and ask them what they need from you at whatever stage of the family life cycle you’re all in. 

Thank you for listening and thank you for sharing us. How to Talk to [Mamí and Papí] About Anything is an original production of Lantigua Williams & Co. Virginia Lora is the show’s producer. Kojin Tashiro is our mixer. Manuela Bedoya is our social media editor. Cedric Wilson is our lead producer. Jen Chien is our executive editor. I’m the creator, Juleyka Lantigua-Williams. On Twitter and Instagram, we’re @TalktoMamiPapi. Please follow us and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Goodpods,  anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts. Bye, everybody. Same place next week. 

CITATION: 

Lantigua-Williams, Juleyka, host. “She Has a Ph.D, But Papí Still Wants Her to Serve Him.” 

How to Talk to [Mamí & Papí] About Anything, 

Lantigua Williams & Co., June 14, 2021. TalkToMamiPapi.com.