Carmen identifies as a feminist, but the term has negative connotations for her Cuban parents. And, migration and gender scholar Berta Hernández-Truyol helps us deconstruct the label and reclaim the word feminism.
Featured Expert:
Professor Berta Hernández-Truyol is an internationally renowned human rights scholar who utilizes an interdisciplinary and international framework to promote human well-being around the globe. She is engaged in initiatives that seek to develop, expand and transform the human rights discourse with a focus on issues of gender, race, ethnicity, culture, sexuality, language, and other vulnerabilities as well as their interconnections. As part of a team of UF scholars immersed in engagement with Cuba and in the re-establishment of relations between the Levin College of Law and the University of Havana Law School, she travels to Cuba to develop associations with professors across the UH campus. She travels broadly to discuss and teach human rights. She has made presentations and offered courses in countries around the world including Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Guatemala, France, Italy, Mexico, Peru, Spain, and Uruguay. Learn more about her work here.
If you loved this episode, be sure to listen to She Has A Ph.D But Papí Still Wants Her to Serve Him, and When Mamí Wants You Close, But You Need Space.
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Juleyka Lantigua-Williams:
Hi, everybody. Today, I’m speaking with Carmen. Carmen grew up in a Cuban American household and always felt her parents treated her and her older brother very differently. Now, as an adult, she strongly identifies as a feminist. Her parents have some misconceptions about the term, which makes some of her choices difficult to understand. Let’s get into it.
Carmen: My name is Carmen. I am the co-host of a podcast called Teikirisi, celebrating all things Cuban American, and in my family I call my mom mommy, and I call my dad daddy. In my house, I learned very early on what exactly I was supposed to do as la hembra, exactly what chores I was supposed to do and how I was supposed to behave, how I was supposed to dress, and what things I was allowed to want, and what things I wasn’t. And I began protesting it super early, that my mom would wake me up on a Sunday morning early to clean the house with her, and I said, “Look, I don’t really care what kind of ass spanking you’re gonna give me. I’m not doing this unless my brother gets up and does it too.”
Looking back now, I’m like, “Wow, I was such a pain.” Like, “I should have just helped her.” But I have this perspective because I have an older brother. I saw the juxtaposition very, very clearly, and for a long time my parents would allow my brother to do things that I wasn’t allowed to do, and they said it was because he was older. But as I became older, as I became a teenager, and as I wanted to go out to the mall with my friends, and I had boyfriends, and all of these very normal teenager things to do, that I had to fight tooth and nail to be able to do, I never saw them really give me the same treatment my brother had.
Once I became an adult and I sort of left the nest, that’s when things really got difficult because they could no longer enforce gender roles upon me. They basically had no way of controlling me and they’re like, “What are you doing with your life? Why are you single, childless, renting an apartment with a roommate in New York? What are you doing with your life?”
Feminism was not really a word that was said in my house. Feminism is a word that has come up in conversation between my parents and I, most recently as I’ve become an adult. So, my father lives in Spain. He has seen feminist riots, Free the Nipple marches, and all sorts of things that he’s like, “¡Qué indecencia!” And I’m like, “Well, dad, do you really think that all of those women are just indecen...like they’re just indecent women who just take their shirts off and march on the streets for no reason? Do you think that’s really what it is? All of those women? Maybe one or two, but all of them?”
And I think my parents think feminists are women who are off the rails, who have lost touch with what a decent human being would do, who have no shame and who plan to never be mothers. I don’t know about that last part, but that seems to come up a lot. In my parents’ worst nightmares, I am running around Brooklyn with my boobs out. I think that’s the worst thing that they can think of. Yeah. Which is kind of crazy, but anyway.
I don’t tell them I don’t do that. I’m just like, “Oh, you gotta be careful. You keep calling me a feminist, I might just go do it. You don’t know. Maybe I already have.” That’s how we are. We joke about stuff.
I think now that I’ve become an adult and I’ve sort of… I’m doing air quotes. “Proven” myself, regardless of all of the choices I’ve made that they disagree with, I’ve been able to show them like… One day I asked my mom, “Could you imagine having done this without a man?” And she’s like, “No, absolutely not.” Like, “Yo con tu edad, I had two kids and I was married, and I cannot imagine not being in that position. I would have been a failure.”
And I’m like, “Okay, cool. Do you think I’m a failure?” And she’s like, “No. I think you’re wonderful.” So, I think once they’re able to identify that word with somebody that they know and they know is not insane, I think that’s a step forward. And then further than that, whenever the conversation does come up, I try… I always try to explain. For example, as soon as my sister-in-law got pregnant, she was like, “Oh my God, of course, finally, because that’s what women are supposed to do.” And I’m just like, “Really, mom? That sucks.” So, once we talked about that, then the problem came up as like, “Oh, well, that’s what you believe because you’re such a feminist.”
And I say, “No, mom. You know, of course, if you’re pregnant and you want to give birth to your child, against all of the odds, more power to you. Make it work. You do everything you can.” But for me, I would prefer to not do that, and the reason for that is it’s very expensive to give birth. It’s very expensive to raise a child. Not only that, but all of these other constraints that I’m working with. Then she’s like, “Wow. Yeah, why does it cost so much money to give birth? That’s like the most natural thing. That should be cheap or free.” And I’m like, “Yeah, mom.”
She’s like, “Well, I don’t know. You just figure it out. We didn’t have a lot of money growing up and you guys turned out okay.” And I’m like, “Yeah. Don’t you think that if you could give me better, that you wouldn’t have?” And she’s like, “Of course. If I could have, then I would have.” And I’m like, “Well, I’m in that position. I can give my children better. And so, do you think I’m gonna do that getting paid less than men?”
And she’s like, “What? Women get paid less than men? Since when? You’re lying.” And I’m like, “Okay. Well, let me tell you.” I think it’s just guiding them through issues that they’ve never had to confront, or deal with, or work through, because they’re people who brought their family to the U.S. and then kept their heads down and just worked hard and didn’t have the luxury of thinking about these things.
Lantigua-Williams:
Carmen’s story made me think about labels and how they sometimes become obtrusive instead of helpful. It also made me wonder about why feminism has such a negative connotation for many of our parents and how challenging it can be to move past a label to talk about our values. To help us work through this, I called in an expert.
Berta Esperanza Hernández-Truyol:
My name is Berta Esperanza Hernández Truyol. I was born in Cuba. I’ve lived all over the United States. And I am a law professor. I teach issues of race, gender, culture, ethnicity, sexuality, and constitutional law.
Lantigua-Williams:
Berta, you heard Carmen’s story. What did you hear?
Hernández-Truyol:
I heard every daughter of immigrant parents’ story, at least in the Latina/Latino context. All of it. The culture, the generational gaps, the clash in language. It is fascinating.
Lantigua-Williams:
Based on the work that you’ve done and based on your understanding of the confluence of influences here, what are some of the key dynamics at play when you listen to Carmen’s story?
Hernández-Truyol:
One of the big ones, clearly the gender roles, and the cultural gender roles, and how to communicate across generations about gender roles. There’s one thing that she said that really stood out to me. When she said once we stop using the word feminism, and I talk to mom, and she understands that women shouldn’t be paid less than men, we’re all on the same page. And maybe the word won’t be so bad because she knows me.
Lantigua-Williams:
Why is feminism a curse word for immigrant parents?
Hernández-Truyol:
It’s not only for immigrant parents. It’s for a lot of people. I actually wrote a paper that’s called Reclaiming the F Word and F was feminism. A lot of people react to it and have the same image invoked, still today I have to add, that Carmen presented. And when she talks about her father, his image of what a feminist is… Rowdy, non-conforming, not, this is my word, “normal.” So, there’s an invocation of something that sadly is a negative image, that is attached to feminism so that feminism itself becomes a derogatory term. And that’s very sad because feminism is that radical idea that women are people too.
Lantigua-Williams:
So, for me, there was a little bit of dissonance because women played a really important role not just in the Cuban revolution, but in Cuban society. They are leaders, and thinkers, and scholars, and so I was really surprised that her invoking the notion of feminism would be so off putting to parents who are coming from a society where women are definitely very involved in all of the ways in which that society functions and thrives.
Hernández-Truyol:
That is true, but there’s still the Marianismo. That has not changed. In fact-
Lantigua-Williams:
All right, let’s get into it.
Hernández-Truyol:
If I can tell you a story, because I was in Cuba a few years ago and what is very interesting is that although women do form all parts of society, there is still a lot of gender roles. For example, when there are shortages, women but not men are exempted from standing in line because men are not trustworthy. Women but not men get time off to be with sick parents, because we all know that the men would just go to the street corner and have beer. And most significant, I mean, and this I think is hysterical, Cuba passed a law along the lines and ideas of being very gender egalitarian, saying that parents, and that of course is very heteronormative, right? Because it’s presuming a man and a woman, it is the two individuals in the couple who have a child who decide who goes back to work and who stays at home to take care of the kids.
As of about three years ago, there had been a total of eight to 10 men who had taken advantage of that and had been the ones to stay at home. And what happens-
Lantigua-Williams:
In the whole country?
Hernández-Truyol:
In the whole country. Those men then report that their friends would come to chotearlos. And knock on the door with their bag of laundry. Their male friends knock on the door with their bag of laundry and say, “Okay, here. Do mine too, honey,” and leave. It’s pitiful. So, you know, there’s that egalitarianism is in law, but law and culture don’t always coincide.
Lantigua-Williams:
Right. So, I was really interested in the caricature of a feminist that her father, for example, presents her with. And so, I want to ask you, what are some of the assumptions about a Western or an Americanized feminism that our parents seem so afraid of?
Hernández-Truyol:
That we won’t fit into the cultural gendered norms and that we will be harmed, we will not be happy, because they can only think of their image of happiness. In that sense, it’s not surprising. What they want is happiness and happiness for a girl is, “Well, she’ll grow up, and she’ll marry a well-off person who will be able to take care of her and take care of the family that they will grow.” Well, reality check, that just isn’t the world mostly anymore, because most of the time even if you do have a partner for life and there is a marriage, chances are that both people are going to have to work to make ends meet.
And then there’s another phenomenon that I love… Vilma Espín. She’s a Cuban sociologist, works out in the West Coast. She studies multigenerational families of immigrants and what happens is that the parents who migrate then have a fixed image of an idealized society that they left behind. In Cuba, this wouldn’t happen. No, in Cuba this wouldn’t have been possible if it had been the way it was. That happens a lot with culture. There is this firm image in the parents’ generation of what culture is and what it should be that doesn’t change with time. And they can compare. Well, in the United States this is happening, pero, eso no hubiera pasado en Cuba.
Lantigua-Williams:
Okay, but that to me seems so contradictory to things like moms and women and daughters have to join the workforce often when they come to the United States, which they had an option to or not to in the home country. They often have to take backbreaking labor if they’re undocumented. They sometimes become the sole breadwinner if the father is deported or if the father hasn’t even made it to the country yet. And in many ethnic enclaves, the communities build around the matrilineal relationships where one sister comes, she brings her mother, then they bring the other sister, then they bring the other cousin, et cetera, et cetera.
So, how does that immigrant mentality about in the home country this wouldn’t have happened come into play in the fact that they have to conform in so many significant ways that would “never happen back in the home country?”
Hernández-Truyol:
Well, that’s the idealization of the home country and the wanting of that ideal life for the children. It can be disjointed as you say, but it can be very coherent.
Lantigua-Williams:
Because it’s what they project for their children.
Hernández-Truyol:
: Exactly.
Lantigua-Williams:
Despite what their reality is.
Hernández-Truyol:
Exactly. What would have been. What would have been in our country of origin. That would have never happened there. But you know, we’re talking about a lot of things that are cause for concern, but there’s one real bright light in what Carmen was saying in one of her conversations with her mother, when she said, “Well, you know, she’s basically agreeing, and maybe the word won’t be so bad after this.” What she captured there is something that is really important in the way life really works out. There are a lot of sociological studies that say that the way to end prejudice, and this can be prejudice against what I call others in society, is to know someone. The minute someone A, who has certain preconceived ideas of call it feminism, call it queer people, call it ethnic minorities, once they know someone who is that word, those prejudices begin to break down.
It’s an important part of using the word, because one of the ways of managing the pushback against the term feminism is to tell stories about equality without using the F word.
Lantigua-Williams:
All right, so besides telling stories and meeting people to normalize the feminism in the way that first gens are living out their lives, what are some other techniques or advice you might have for someone in Carmen’s shoes?
Hernández-Truyol:
Use the word. Reclaim it. And use it with its positive connotations of equality, of no subordination. Have more men claim feminism. Infuse it into the culture. Show how the culture is feminist. Women, especially, are holding the families together, are doing as you called it backbreaking labor for the family. Those are true feminists.
Lantigua-Williams:
Berta, thank you so much.
Hernández-Truyol:
Well, thank you so much for the opportunity.
Lantigua-Williams:
All right, let’s recap what we learned from Berta. Use familiar examples. In many immigrant communities in the U.S. and in our home countries, women are breadwinners, heads of households, civic leaders, elected officials, and already exemplify the idea that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. Point to these familiar examples to show that feminism is not necessarily an American concept imposed by a younger generation. Normalize feminism. Share stories of your own experience with gender equality and the importance of women’s rights. To help your message land, focus on the underlying values instead of leading with the actual word, feminism. And remember, reclaim the label! Use the word feminism in its positive connotations. As your loved ones begin to associate the word with positive ideas and experiences and with your positive ideas and your positive experiences, hopefully their misconceptions will fade over time.
Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing us. Thank you for believing in us. Thank you for being here with us week after week. How to Talk to [Mamí and Papí] About Anything is an original production of Lantigua Williams & Co. Virginia Lora is the show’s producer. Kojin Tashiro is our mixer. Manuela Bedoya is our social media editor. Cedric Wilson is our lead producer. Jen Chien is our executive editor. I’m the creator, Juleyka Lantigua-Williams. On Twitter and Instagram, we’re @TalktoMamiPapi. Please follow us and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Goodpods, anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts. Bye, everybody. Same place next week.
CITATION:
Lantigua-Williams, Juleyka, host. “When Feminism Is a Dirty Word.”
How to Talk to [Mamí & Papí] About Anything,
Lantigua Williams & Co., July 4, 2021. TalkToMamiPapi.com.