Malischa has big plans for her dream career, but her Haitian parents have a more traditional definition of success. And Dorianne St. Fleur, a career and leadership coach who works with women of color, shares a handy acronym to help us make decisions with purpose and discuss them with our loved ones.
Featured Expert:
Dorianne St Fleur is an HR leader, Diversity & Inclusion strategist, and career & leadership coach who turns professional women of color into paid and prominent corporate powerhouses. She brings a culturally relevant perspective to her work. She draws from her education (B.A. of Psychology from Spelman College), 10+ years of Human Resources and Diversity & Inclusion experience (at top companies like Google, Goldman Sachs, and AT&T), deep empathy, and 300+ conversations with top performing women of color, to help her clients interrupt status quo success with personal paths to abundance, fulfillment, and achievement. She is the founder of Your Career Girl, a platform geared toward helping women of color strong-arm self-sabotage, clarify career goals, and navigate toward their desired career path gracefully. Learn more about her work helping women of color find their dream careers, here.
Learn more about her work here. If you loved this episode, be sure to listen to to When Mamí Doesn't Respect Your Hustle, and She Had to Choose Her Career over Her Parents.
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Juleyka Lantigua:
Hi everybody. Before we get started, on behalf of the entire How to Talk to [Mamí & Papí] team and the LWC Studios team: Thank you, thank you, thank you! This is our 100th episode! Aaah! Can you believe it? I can barely believe it.
We are so incredibly moved. And so incredibly grateful to all of our guests who have shared their experiences and expertise so generously with us and with you for the past 100 episodes. And thank you for listening, for sharing us and for supporting us over the past two years. Literally, none of this would not be possible without you. Quite literally, we would just be making a show for us. So, here’s to 100 more, and here’s our show for today.
Today we welcome Malischa. Malischa's Haitian parents wanted her to have a career in law, but Malischa felt called to dance. Today she's a dancer and dance instructor but she still struggles to talk to her parents about her dedication and success in her creative field. Let's get into it.
Malischa: My name is Malischa Oge, I am a first-generation Haitian-American. And in our family we call our parents mummy and daddy. Growing up I was going into law. For Haitian families, Caribbean families, either it's medicine, law or math and something in there. And all my other siblings, they fit into those boxes. As a child I started off in church dancing. It's called liturgical dancing but the more common term is praise dancing. I loved it, that was a major part of my childhood. We would minister during church services and learn choreography. We trained, I loved it, loved it, loved it.
Malischa: When I graduated and I got into college I really took a hard look and I sat down and I was like, "Okay, I love law. I really am interested," and then things like that, but basically, was this going to make me happy? Was it going to be something that I can see long-term? When I'm living on my own and I walk into my house at night was I going to be stressed or excited about the next day? I literally sat there and thought about these things. And I'm like, "I don't want that to be my life." I was just preparing myself like, "Oh, gosh, what am I going to tell my parents?" Especially with dance and things, because in Caribbean families once you say you want to be a dancer they automatically think it's evil, it's for the devil, things like that. And I'm like, "No, it's not bad."
Malischa: I ended up doing my major in journalism and then my minor in dance. And once I told my parents, at first it was the end of the world. And then slowly but surely, they saw that I wasn't going to change my mind. It felt like such an adult decision. And I sat down, and I'm translating because it was not in English, but I was like, "Listen." Which, that's a whole other story because now my Haitian Creole is way better than it was before. So I'm sitting here trying to find the words to explain. And sometimes it doesn't translate, especially when it's dire, this do or die.
Malischa: My dad, he's the super stubborn one so I could plead my case and make so much sense but then it was like, "Yeah, but that's not what the plan was." So literally and figuratively we were speaking two different languages. All the drama, it was worth it. I am a dance instructor, a dance teacher now. I've been a dance teacher for seven years now. I get to dance every single day. I wake up, I teach little kids, grown adults and all different styles. I teach ballet, tap, jazz, hiphop, modern. I teach private lessons.
Malischa: And so yes, I made it happen, financially stable. I've been working at a dance studio. Eventually I want to be able to open my own studio. And still a really big part of my life is liturgical dancing, praise dancing. My parents are very happy about that, that I'm still active in my church. I'm teaching the kids liturgical dancing, I didn't turn evil. Dance didn't turn me against the Lord, it didn't ruin me.
Malischa: But when it comes to the other side of dance, so my ballet, my tap, my jazz, and my hiphop, things like that, my mom is a little bit more receptive, maybe, of, "Okay, you're having a show, you're performing here. You go get ready, I'm going to come. What time is it? When is the performance, when is the show?" My dad is still like, "So what kind of dance?" Every once in a while he's still trying to comprehend but at least it's not butting heads anymore.
Malischa: I think my dad, he's always had this picture of being successful is sitting in an office, a big office, and you're telling people what to do and that's what success is. As a dancer, as a creative ... Because a lot of the things I do is freelance as well, so when he's trying to explain to other people what his oldest daughter is doing, I don't think he has a concrete answer because I'm doing so many things all at once. And I feel like a big part of the Caribbean and Haitian culture, too ... Which me and my siblings, we hated growing up, is worrying so much about what other people think, other Haitian families, "Well if this is what your daughter is doing this is what my daughter is doing." And I think not having those concrete answers to give is one of the major parts of where the clashing and all of that came from.
Lantigua: As a first-gen and an entrepreneur, I relate so much to Malischa's story, her desire, her willingness, her sacrifices to pursue a career that really and truly fulfills her even when it's not the one her parents had in mind is so inspiring. How can first-gens talk to our loved ones about our dream careers in the arts, in creative fields, in things that are not, quote-unquote, traditional, especially when our calling seems to challenge their definition of success? To help us figure it out I called in an expert.
St Fleur: I am Dorianne St Fleur and I am a career and leadership development coach for ambitious women of color.
Lantigua: So, Dorianne, as you listened to Malischa's story what did you hear?
St Fleur: Her story really, really resonated with me. I, myself, am from parents of immigrants. And one of the things that stood out was when she said that she felt as she was talking to her parents that she was literally and figuratively speaking two different languages. The frustration that can be born out of that on both sides was something that really, really spoke to me as I was listening to her story.
Lantigua: Let's get into that a little bit. What causes this disconnect where we feel like we're speaking two different languages?
St Fleur: There's so many things. If I have to boil it down I'd say it really stems from just the different ways in which we were brought up. If you think about our parents, they're coming to this country from wherever they are. My parents are Jamaican and if I think about the ideals and the values that they instilled in me, it was really all pointing to the fact that, "I want you to have a better life than I did."
St Fleur: And so, every decision you make, every friend you connect with, everything you do, how is this going to help you have a better life? That is what's directing every single thing that they do. Whereas us, whether we're first-generation or beyond and we've been here, we've seen the lay of the land. We see how things go, "Mommy, it's not the same way that it was with you. The world truly is my oyster now." And because we have these different upbringings, these different stories and narratives that are driving our actions, not only are we not on the same page, we're not even in the same library. We just don't even understand where each other is coming from.
Lantigua: So when you and your clients have to tackle this gap, what are some strategies that you recommend?
St Fleur: I think the first thing is taking a step back firstly and understanding where they're coming from. What our parents want is for us to be financially stable first and foremost. They want to make sure that we can pay for our bills and live a good life, and travel and do all of those things that maybe they didn't get to do or they wanted to do more of. The second thing is they want us to be successful. And they define successful in various ways, but they don't want us to be a bum. They don't want us to be someone who can't fend for themselves out in the world. And let's be real, our parents want us to be braggable. They want to be able to tell their friends and their co-workers, "This is what my daughter is doing and this is what's going on." Once we understand that I like to coach people through crafting a story that addresses those things.
St Fleur: And so even for myself I quit my corporate career June, 2020. And so what I did was I had to translate these things into ways that she could understand. So when we'd talk about financial security, "Mommy, I've been doing this for five, six years. Now that I quit my nine-to-five, this is how I'm going to make sure I not only meet what I was making but exceed that. This is what she wants, to make sure that I'm okay, and so I'm telling her that. When it comes to successful, identify for her what success means for me, "I know, mom, that you want me to do X, Y and Z, but for me, success means that I have a career that's impactful, that I have a career that's fulfilling, that I have a career that I feel is specifically my calling and what I was assigned to do. This path gives me that."
St Fleur: And so I work to have my clients craft what is that it for their parents and how can you talk about that. And then for the braggable, "Yeah, mommy, here's what it was. I was featured here." Give her something to talk to the friends about. Let's be real, she wants to brag. And so, I think just once we understand what our parents really want, what's driving their actions or their words, really speaking in their language, to go back to that analogy that we were talking about.
Lantigua: First of all, thank you for addressing the bragging element because it is so real to them.
St Fleur: In a sense, they're reliving their lives through us. I think about my daughter, she's seven right now and she just started track. I never played sports growing up but I'm like, "Oh, when we get to the championship ..." I'm excited like it's me again. And so, she's seven, like, "Calm down Dorianne." But when I think about our own parents, they're really proud and they love us. And, "Look at what my daughter is doing, " or, "Look at the potential, look at all the things I see in her," I get to relive this through her. And I think, give them a little something to do that.
Lantigua: I totally, totally agree. I really want to dig into this concept because we've never talked about it on the show and I'm a little bit familiar with it but I want to spend a few minutes on it and it's the idea of alignment.
St Fleur: Absolutely, that's one of my favorite words is alignment. And all I mean by that is doing what we're supposed to be doing when we're supposed to be doing that. And even as Malischa was sharing her story and if anyone else can relate to what she shares, there's this element of, "I know that I was on the path to do this other thing, but this is what I know I'm supposed to do." But you can hear it in her voice how she got excited when talking about, this is the path that I'm on now. And I think there's an internal pulling that helps navigate us toward what it is that we should be doing at the right time.
And the reason why I put the, "When we should be doing it," is because I'm very aware. And if I think of my own career and my clients' careers, even the same person can have a different calling at different points in our lives. And I think when we understand and we sit down and we get clear on, "What should I be doing? What are my skills, my talents? Where is it that I see my strengths can really be leveraged? And what should I be doing right now based on what I have going on, what my goals are, et cetera?" that's when we can get into that alignment. When you're aligned you get to make better decisions. You get to make quicker decisions. You get to make decisions that are more fruitful because you're doing what you're supposed to be doing when you're supposed to be doing it.
Lantigua: So what are the signs that you're in alignment or that you're not in alignment?
St Fleur: So before I answer the signs, let me talk a little bit. I have a little formula about understanding what you should be doing. It's an acronym, I call it DREAM for dream job. And the D stands for development. So the first thing when you want to understand, "How do I get aligned, what should I be doing?" think about the goals that you have for your growth and development. What is it that you need to thrive? What are the skill sets that you need to improve upon? Take time to think that through, don't just go through the motions and because your boss says, "Take this course," or someone's telling you, "Get that MBA," you do that. No, what is it that I need specifically to continue to build on the skill set and the strength that I have?
St Fleur: The R is around relationships. When we're at work and we're thinking about our careers, we spend more time often with the people that we work with than the people that we live with. So let's make sure that the relationships we're building are ones that are feeding us. What kind of relationship do you want to have with your manager, with your peers, with your vendors, clients, whoever it is. Take the time to be intentional. How do you want to engage with them and what do you need in order to thrive?
St Fleur: The E is for environment and I think what the pandemic taught us is that there's a lot of different opportunities and options for folks. And so, what environment do you need to thrive? And when I talk about environment, yes, it's physical but also cultural. What kind of cultural environment do I need?
St Fleur: The A is for acknowledgement and so as human beings we need to be acknowledged, we need to be recognized. My contributions, I need to feel like they matter for the organization or whatever I'm doing in my career. And so think about what you need. And then the M is the money, let's not forget the money. What is it that you need for your lifestyle, for your goals in order for money? When you sit down and you really think through this entire package and, "What are all these things that I need?" ask yourself, "Is the current path that I'm on taking me through this? Am I getting what I need?"
St Fleur: So when we talk about signs, the signs are, "Is the current role that I'm in, is the current path that I'm on giving me what I've identified I need for my dream career?" If the answer is no, it's time to switch some things up. And I always have to give this caveat, you don't need to go into your manager's office and quit today. I'm not saying that. I'm saying you've identified some gaps and so let's create an exit strategy or a path of how you're going to get from where you are today to where you need to be.
Lantigua: So once you figure out, "Oh, this is not for me right now," can we use some of those same guidelines? And then how do we apply them to the decision making about what we're going to be doing next?
St Fleur: Absolutely. So I designed the DREAM profile for exactly that. So once you assess where you are you can make objective decisions and not be, "Oh, this company is so sexy. I love the name of it, let me go work there." No, no, no, how does it align with the development goals? What about the relationships? What's the vibe you got? Go through that for yourself so you can make aligned and objective decisions.
Lantigua: I love it, I love it. So let's get back a little bit to folks who want to color outside the line, like Malischa. She's coming from an immigrant family who has a very defined sense of what success is, you're a doctor, you're a lawyer, you're an engineer. And there are lots of other careers that are not the dictionary-style jobs.
Lantigua: How can we begin the conversation with our parents about, "Yes, this is something that is not traditional. But yes, all of the things that mean security, which is ultimately what you want me to have, those are still part of what I intend to do." How early do we need to start these conversations? At what point do we get them involved? Help us out.
St Fleur: To me, I think, what really helps is even the framing. We don't need to call it non-traditional anymore. We don't need to make it seem like it's some out-there thing. We are in a whole new world. It is not non-traditional anymore.
Lantigua: So true.
St Fleur: And so, talking about it in a way that is positive, in a way that you feel confident about what you're doing, because if you don't believe that you can make it here, how do you expect your parents to believe that either. You got to come with the fire, come with the ferocity, like, "This is what I know that I need to be doing," and then get real and talk about some things. The truth is for a lot of these entrepreneurial endeavors, the income ceiling is way beyond what you could get in these more, quote-unquote, traditional places.
St Fleur: And so bring your parents along the ride and the journey with you. Point to people who are making it or who have made it in this space. Give them the security that they need mentally to go on this journey with you. But then one thing I really want to ultimately say is that it's important that you as you're having this conversation, that you're aware that you're the only one who gets to live your life.
St Fleur: So, "Mommy, daddy, I want you to be happy. I want you to be supportive. I want you to come on this journey with me. Ultimately, I'm not going to live my life through you. I have to do what it is that I need to do." Now, maybe you can't say it like that. Maybe it's something you keep in your back pocket and you just know for yourself that ultimately, "I'm going to have to do what I have to do." Yes, we would want the support, we want all of these things. But you have to make a decision, "Whose life am I going to live, mines or someone else's?"
Lantigua: Oh, preach. Thank you so much for coming on. You are such a gift.
St Fleur: Of course. Thank you so much for having me.
Lantigua: All right, here's what Dorianne taught us today.
Carefully craft your story. When speaking about your career plans, include specific details that address your parents' underlying concerns about financial stability, career success, and yes, their mighty and well-earned bragging rights.
Lantigua: Keep the DREAM acronym in mind, focus on your development, relationships, environment and money to help you identify your needs and make decisions toward your goals.
And remember, you do you with conviction. Even if it goes against other people's expectations, it's up to you to live your life and pursue what you're willing to put in the work to achieve.
Lantigua: Thank you for listening and for sharing us. How to Talk To Mami and Papi About Anything is an original production of LWC Studios. Virginia Lora is the show's producer. Kojin Toshiro is our mixer. Manuela Bedoya is our marketing lead. I'm the creator, Juleyka Lantigua. On Twitter and Instagram we're @TalktoMamiPapi. Bye everybody, same place next week.
CITATION:
Lantigua, Juleyka, host. “Parents Pushed Her into Law, But She Chose Dance Instead”
How to Talk to [Mamí & Papí] About Anything,
LWC Studios., March 28, 2022. TalkToMamiPapi.com.