Nelson's Colombian mom always looked down on salespeople and scoffed at his father's business ambitions. Now an entrepreneur, he still struggles with her misperceptions. And, psychotherapist Stevon Lewis helps us talk about our ambitions with our loved ones and reconcile different definitions of success.
Featured Expert:
Stevon Lewis is a licensed psychotherapist in private practice specializing in the treatment of Impostor Syndrome. He earned his Bachelor’s of Arts degrees in Psychology and Afro-Ethnic Studies from California State University, Fullerton and a Master’s of Science degree in Counseling with an emphasis in Marriage and Family Therapy from California State University, Long Beach. He began his therapy career in 2007 as a therapist at a community mental health agency, working with the families of adolescents involved with the juvenile justice system. Until 2019, he served as the Director of Counseling Services at Woodbury University, a small private university in Burbank, CA. He is a clinical member of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists (CAMFT) and am a Past President of the Long Beach-South Bay chapter. You can learn more about his work here.
If you loved this episode, be sure to listen to Talking to Mamí About Her Money, and She Loves Her Work, Her Parents Don't Get It.
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Juleyka Lantigua-Williams:
Hi, everybody. Today, I’m speaking with Nelson. Nelson grew up seeing his Colombian mother belittle his father’s entrepreneurial spirit and talking him out of business ventures. This really impacted Nelson’s relationship with her. As an adult and as an entrepreneur himself, he still struggles to understand some of her choices and to feel fully understood and seen by her. Let’s get into it.
Nelson: My name is Nelson. I’m originally from Brooklyn, New York, and now I live in South Florida. In my family, we call our parents papa or mama. My mom was very… She had a difficult time adapting to part of what the U.S. is about. The U.S. is a country of basically people who work very hard and hustle. That, for her, was a challenge now that I look back on it. My mom looked down on sales jobs, ¡eres un vendedor! Very disparaging. And then the flip side of the coin is my dad. My dad had very little formal education, or little compared to my mom, but my dad was almost built to be in the U.S.
I mean, he was the guy who always had a side hustle, right? So, that caused a lot of friction, and then for the rest of us too, there was friction growing up. We went down to Florida for Spring Break. Miami, right? My godfather, he’s a Cuban guy, and he took us in his convertible Cadillac, which to me, I was like in awe of that. A convertible. In New York, everybody’s freezing up there, and I’m like in the back seat of this convertible. I’m like, “Oh, man. I’m the coolest teenager in town.” We’re driving by South Beach, and at the time, South Beach was kind of a rough area. It was very, very rough.
So, my godfather tells my dad, “You’re good at saving money. You ought to buy one of these buildings.” And whatever my godfather said, my dad would do. So, we stopped the car. My dad leaps out. We do the secret handshake with the owner. “You’re from Brooklyn, I’m from Brooklyn, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.” They agree on a price. We own a building.
My mom just couldn’t take it. Then she started to berate my dad about it. “What do you know about that? You haven’t even finished high school?” And I know that kind of crushed him. So, when we get back to New York, we don’t own the building anymore. That was it. I graduate from high school. I graduate from college. I move to Florida. I drive back down there and actually get to meet maybe the next owner or couple of owners later. But what we could have bought that building for, basically almost for cash, and would have been a loan they were throwing in, we couldn’t even buy an apartment now in that building.
I think my mother was opposed to it because of fear. That I think threatened her maybe. She is a fearful person that we would drop out of school, and instead of high school, or finishing college, we would get a job at McDonald’s because we wanted fast money. So, there was this kind of love-hate relationship with money. And then I also believe there was a certain aspect of control, too. Because the more I kind of control the purse strings, the more I control their dependence or independence from me.
With my daughter, I’ll definitely talk about that. She says, “Daddy, I want to get some of these popups.” And popups, they’re… Think of them like the next generation of spinners, the little things people spin around, and she goes, “Daddy, can we get them? They’re at some store.” You know, she Google searched them at like 10 years old. I’m just amazed. And I said, “Sure, we’ll go.” We find them, so she goes… I’m thinking, “Daddy, can we have one?” And she goes, “Daddy, no, I want to buy 10.” And I’m like, “What are you gonna do with 10 of them?” She goes, “I’m gonna sell them to my classmates.”
And I gotta admit, when she said that, I just melted. I’m like, “We’re buying all 10.” And I gotta admit, I was just in awe of her, and I was thinking, “What has happened to me, I will not allow to happen to her.” I’ll set the conditions in place so that she’s comfortable doing all this. It’s not this bad guilt trip that’s put on her. I just love seeing her enthusiasm about it. And I have to mix it in. You need to fix your bed. “Well, daddy, I might lose this sale.” I’m like, “You don’t use that on daddy, okay?” So, there’s that.
And then my mom… We talk. We definitely talk about it. There is I would say some embarrassment probably associated with it because certain actions weren’t taken earlier, like, “Hey, mom. There’s this thing called an IRA. You should be putting money into that.” I believe she feels a bit of guilt because she dug in her heels so much about it and some of us had to do things in spite of them, like the whole thing about South Beach, right? That is not to be brought up at the Thanksgiving table.
I’m very careful how I frame questions. I stay away from why questions because a why question, to the person saying the why question it sounds like a normal curious. To the person on the receiving end of a why question, that sounds like a full-blown Guantanamo Bay interrogation. I’ll say, “Hey, mom. Your thought process, and how did that work? Or what was happening to make you think and act that way?” Because I really want to understand. And especially if you hold your parents in high regard and high respect, to have to daily remind myself that I respect you, I value the upbringing, I value the education, but there are certain parts of that that do not serve me. And that’s still a little bit of a tough pill for me to swallow because I feel like I’m disrespecting them.
Lantigua-Williams:
As a first gen entrepreneur, I really get Nelson’s story. From his side and his mom’s side. Like Nelson, I’ve often struggled to decide how much and what to share with family about the ups and downs of running a company, because I don’t want them to worry about me, and because I really couldn’t handle their disapproval at sensitive times. So, how do we talk about our ambitions and motivations with loved ones when our definitions of success might look very different? To help us figure it out, I called in an expert.
Stevon Lewis: I am Stevon Lewis. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist based out of Southern California. Inglewood, to be exact.
Lantigua-Williams:
So, Stevon, you heard Nelson’s story. What did you hear as you listened?
Lewis: Ooh, I heard a few different things. I heard of where he still wants to please his mama. He wants her to be proud of him. And I think that’s a tough way to live life if we’re waiting for other people to validate whether we’re good or not. I also heard some stuff from his mom that sounded like projection I guess is the clinical term for it, of where she’s putting off her own fears and concerns onto him.
Lantigua-Williams:
And so, what does one do when one is a first-generation son who’s dealing with these issues?
Lewis: Well, first I would say it’s normal for people to want to have the approval of their parents. They’re the first people we come into contact with. We want to make them proud. I also think that for him, it would be helpful to look at his own kind of existence or accomplishments objectively. Not really focusing on whether his mother is approving, but for him to really take stock in his own kind of behavior and how he’s operating and saying, “Am I being successful? And if I am being successful, am I doing it in a way that’s not harming or hurting other people?” Which is a more objective way to look at things, for him to be able to connect with what he’s doing as good and not feel bad about it.
Lantigua-Williams:
One of the things that was super clear to me in hearing Nelson talk about his mom is how important social status and social appearance was to her, and how much she looked down on sales jobs, and that to me was atypical of what the immigrant myth is about our parents, right? The immigrant myth about our parents is that they sacrificed everything, that they worked multiple jobs, that they went without shoes, and here is a mom who is saying, “Oh, no. You’re too good for that,” right?
And so, talk to me a little bit about the gap between the reality and the perception that his mom tried to pass onto him and how first gens like Nelson can try to close that gap.
Lewis: I think you hit something, hit it kind of right on the head with how our understanding of, like you said, the immigrant experience is that we hustle hard, right? Like that… My best friend, father is from Nigeria, we growing up heard all the stories of, “I came over here with like 70 bucks,” and he did well, like owned multiple properties, and engineer, all sorts of stuff. And we get the stories of the hardships. Also, there is this thing of where our lives weren’t supposed to be like that. And so, if we’re hustling, then we did it wrong, right? That he did all the hustle in his generation so we didn’t have to. And I think that that’s where the judgment comes. It’s like, “Well, I did that so that you could be a doctor or engineer. Those are the only acceptable professions you can go into. If you aren’t doing that, then what the hell are you doing with your life?”
It’s a tough thing because you’re saying, “Well, what worked for you was having this hustle mentality. That’s what made you successful. Now you’re saying I need to abandon all of that.” And that’s hard for a kid to understand because the story or the message they’re getting is that you’ve gotta work hard. You’ve gotta hustle. That’s to be successful, because that’s what my mom or dad did. But they’re also telling me, “Don’t do that.” Parents don’t want you to have a struggle life. I think that if you’re being successful, and that’s where I said you’ve gotta evaluate whether what you’re doing is working for you, then in a more objective way, so are you getting the results you’re wanting by doing things the way you want to do them?
Start there as a baseline. So, we’re kind of objectively evaluating what it is we’re doing and what we’re putting out into the world. Are we doing it in a way that is helping us reach our goals? If not, then maybe we take into account more of what our parents are telling us, or try a different way. But other than that, as individuals and human beings, especially adult children, we’re going to have to live with the consequences of our decisions. And if you’re happy with how your life is, at the end of the day you’re the one who’s gonna have to live with it and be you.
Lantigua-Williams:
Yeah. I’m gonna push back on that one.
Lewis: Okay.
Lantigua-Williams:
Because in a typical, big quotation marks, Latino household, you see your family all the time! They’re in your face, in your business. You can’t really be like, “I’m good. This is what I decided for myself. I’m a grown person. It is what it is.” Yeah, we don’t roll like that. We’re gonna be questioning your every decision. How can we, after we’ve done all this wonderful growth and self-assessment, and positioned ourselves for ourselves, where we want to be, how can we communicate that in ways that one, don’t fly in the face of what our parents have wanted for us, right? And two, don’t make them feel like we are doubting the work that they’ve put in already on our behalf.
Lewis: So, the way I like to do it is what I call clarifying questions. And so-
Lantigua-Williams:
Say more.
Lewis: Yeah. So, the way I like to do it is get people to acknowledge kind of truths and ask it in a way that is hard to refute. So, as an example with what you just said, always around family who’s… You said it in a really nice way. I’m gonna say who’s judging. They’re judging you to see if you’re doing things appropriately. I would say ask the question, if you’re being successful, ask them like, “Hey, are you wanting me to be successful?” Right? So, just setting the stage like, “Hey, you’re wanting me to do this.” Are you thinking that I’m not being that way? And so, we can start having the conversation in that sense about what is success, how do you guys envision that, am I getting the outcomes of what you think success should look like?
And if so, then I would say it would be really helpful to communicate all the stuff that you did learn from parents that you are now implementing. So, oftentimes how we talked about parents will say, “I hustled hard so you didn’t have to,” right? But from that, there’s some good. And so, saying, “Hey, I learned from you the value of hard work. I learned that to be successful, you’ve gotta roll up your sleeves, that you’ve gotta be dedicated, that you have to do X, you have to do Y. I’m applying those things in my profession now. So, I might not be a doctor, but in sales I am doing all of this. And it doesn’t have the prestigious title maybe that you want to say doctor, or engineer, or a lawyer, attorney, or what have you, but I’m also providing a way for my family. I am building for my family the stuff that you gave me a head start on and I’m adding to that.”
And so, I think it’ll be hard for parents to really argue if you’re getting the outcomes.
Lantigua-Williams:
The other part of this is that a lot of the context in which we’re existing, our parents have no clue about. And sometimes they’re stuck in 20 or 30 years ago, in the context in which they were hustling, and so, you know, it really becomes burdensome, and I’m just gonna say burdensome, to try and communicate to them, “This is a completely different world.” People don’t want a job. People want to have a business. They want to be creative. There are so many ways for people to make money now, it’s not just linear the way that when you came to the United States it was.
So, give me a sense of how much context is necessary and at what point did you just kind of go, “They’re just not gonna get it.”
Lewis: The word burdensome is such a nice way of saying it’s exhausting. It’s really exhausting and frustrating to have to continue to try to convince somebody to understand something they are incapable of understanding. And so, I think you gotta get to a place of recognizing, “I’m trying to understand it, but also the person doesn’t have that level of knowledge or experience to be able to comprehend what it is.” And that’s not a dig on our parents for being… I’m gonna say a word, out of touch. But they’re out of touch with how the world operates now. Like you said, there’s so many more ways to make money that the way that people are even addressing stuff is not to say, “I’m gonna be with a company for 30-plus years,” and so the hustle mentality might not be that I’ve gotta work 15 hours, or 12-hour days. It’s if I’m not being valued or appreciated, then I go somewhere where I am. And if there isn’t an environment that’s appreciating or affirming who I am, then I’m gonna create it for myself, right?
And I think people are being successful at that. Parents don’t understand that because they’re saying the way to do it is how I did it, because there’s safety in that. And I think that’s the real goal, is to understand that what our parents are trying to do is make sure that we’ll be taken care of. And so, part of it is maybe speaking to that fear about, “I know you worry about this and here’s what I’m doing to address that fear.” Anything after that, if they still refuse to accept that you’ve done your due diligence to make sure that you’ve prepared yourself to weather the possible storms that might come your way, then you gotta be comfortable in saying they won’t get it and I just gotta continue to be successful and hopefully they’ll see it.
Lantigua-Williams:
I like your optimism.
Lewis: Well, I mean, at the end of the day, you can’t live your life for other people. I’m a firm believer in that, that like I shouldn’t have to suffer for other people to be happy, or I shouldn’t have to be miserable for other people to be okay.
Lantigua-Williams:
Right. So, this is the thing that I was gonna say, that a lot of the times our success has to also function as a reflection of their success as parents. And if our success is not easily translatable, they have a very difficult time appearing to be successful. So, riddle me that.
Lewis: See, that is an example of where we take on our parents’ wishes for their own validation. I think being a parent, you don’t really get to know if you’ve done a good job till way later in life, right? So, it’s a super long, delayed gratification, and so what parents are trying to do is they’re trying to find ways to assess whether they’re doing good or not, and the easiest way is to say, “Hey, my kid’s a doctor. My kid’s an engineer.” Because for parents, it’s like easy to say my kid did this, I did a good job. And I think that if we allow that to happen or we accept that and we try to become for them what they need to be able to know they did a good job, we put ourselves in a kind of bind to maybe not live to our full potential, or to kind of sacrifice things that we want, which is unfortunate, because we don’t know how many days we have on this rock, and it’s important to kind of maximize or enjoy the value of all of them.
Lantigua-Williams:
Thank you so much.
Lewis: You’re welcome. I had fun.
Lantigua-Williams:
All right, let’s recap what we learned from Stevon. First, self-assess. Take an objective look at your goals and decide if your strategy is working for you. Establishing your own definition of success will give you the confidence to engage in conversations without feeling judged and getting defensive. Ask clarifying questions. Dig a little deeper and encourage your loved ones to see how your desired outcomes and what they envisioned for you are not necessarily that far apart. And remember, provide context. In terms of work, culture, career, and business, the world you’re operating in is probably really different from the one your parents knew when they came to the country. Point this out lovingly and show them how the lessons you learned from them are helping you succeed on your own terms.
Thank you so much for listening and for sharing us. How to Talk to [Mamí and Papí] About Anything is an original production of Lantigua Williams & Co. Virginia Lora is the show’s producer. Kojin Tashiro is our mixer. Manuela Bedoya is our social media editor. Cedric Wilson is our lead producer. Jen Chien is our executive editor. I’m the creator and host, Juleyka Lantigua-Williams. On Twitter and Instagram, we’re @TalktoMamiPapi. Please follow us and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Goodpods, anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts. Bye, everybody. Same place next week.
CITATION:
Lantigua-Williams, Juleyka, host. “When Mamí Doesn't Respect Your Hustle.”
How to Talk to [Mamí & Papí] About Anything,
Lantigua Williams & Co., June 27, 2021. TalkToMamiPapi.com.