Liz is excited about exploring her sexual orientation and fluidity, but thinks her more conservative Colombian mother will not be as open to the idea. And, sex educator Stephanie Campos offers us strategies to bring our loved ones along, once we're ready.
Featured Expert:
Stephanie Campos, MPH, has been teaching about sex, consent, and LGBTQ issues for over a decade, from homeless shelters and inner city clinics to medical schools and college classrooms. She’s a sex educator with Sex Discussed Here, an organization that presents smart, funny sex education programs at colleges, conferences, high schools, trainings, and businesses around the country. Stephanie was the Women’s Health Education Program Coordinator at the Community Healthcare Network in New York City, providing workshops and counseling for youth and adults on safer sex, sexual orientation, body image, healthy relationships, and numerous other topics. Stephanie has been an instructor for the Gynecologic Teaching Associates Program, training medical students how to conduct women’s health exams. She also served as the Bilingual LGBTQI Health Educator at Callen-Lorde Community Health Center, focusing on transgender health issues. She lives in Elizabeth, NJ, and hails from a half-Peruvian, half-Colombian family of hardcore salsa dancers. Learn more about Stephanie's work here.
If you loved this episode, be sure to listen to Talking to their Parents About Being Nonbinary and Overcoming Shame to Love Who You Are.
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Juleyka Lantigua:
Hi, everybody. Today, I'm speaking with Liz. Liz moved to the U.S. from Colombia as a young child and came up in a society that is more open and accepting than the one her mother experienced back home. Today, she's curious about exploring her sexuality and sexual orientation, but that's not something she's ready to bring up with her mom just yet. Let's get into it.
Liz: My name's Liz. I grew up in Colombia. I came to the U.S. when I was nine years old with my younger sister and my mom. For as long as I've known my mom, we have called her mamí. That is what we call her in our family.
My mom and I are very close. I was raised mostly by her as a single mother. My mom and I have never really discussed my specific sexual orientation. For as long as I've been growing up, I have brought home boys. And so far, that is the people that she has met. I identify as bi-curious. I have been with women. I have not dated one yet, and so I'm not 100% comfortable calling myself bisexual. I'm not sure if a relationship with a woman is something that I would like, but it's definitely something that I'm open to exploring. And the same way you wouldn't bring home a Tinder date to your mom, I don't think I would bring up this topic to my mom until I know that it is a lasting part of my life that would affect her.
She is from a different generation. She grew up in Spain. And at the end of the day, my mom is very open-minded, but she's open-minded in the way of, it's fine as long as it's not my kids type of open. I give her credit for trying to keep up with today and keep up with how quickly we're changing, especially this generation, how open we are. That's what I would say. At the same time, there are those old school thoughts sometimes that creep up in conversation or she'll just say it in passing and it's not that serious to her, but it's like, “Mom, you shouldn't say that. We don't say that. That's not a joke.” Those do come up sometimes.
I think if I were to come out to my mom or tell her that I'm bi, I think she would be surprised. I would like to think that she would take me at face value, but I do think a part of her would question it and would question whether I know what I'm talking about about myself. I feel like she might say, “You're just watching too much of this show.” Or, “You're just watching too much TV.” I don't think she would understand that openness. We watch shows like Sense8 or Elite or specific shows where there a lot of LGBTQ representation and we'll talk about the characters and we'll talk about that. It does open up the conversation. And I also noticed how she might be a little bit harsher with her critique of those people than others. I would say her main critique that I don't necessarily approve of is the stereotype of how promiscuous people in the LGBTQ community are. I think she doesn't quite understand that this whole generation as a whole is more open to casual dating and exploring.
My mom does not have anybody near her in her life that is LGBTQ. Her experience of LGBTQ has come from her kids. Like my sister and I have a lot of LGBTQ friends. We've brought them over to the house since we were very little. I would say when we were younger, if we were friends with them, maybe she would have some comments to say or some things to say when she first met them. And then it's just been a case of teaching her, “This is what we love about this person. This is why we're friends with this person.” And humanizing them. And she has seen them grow up and she has seen them be successful, and so I think that has helped her. At the same time, it is interesting to see how she gets startled, I guess, just by how out and proud they are and how they're living their life and how in their generation, even if you were gay, you weren't as out about it as you can be now.
In my family, I would say my younger sister is an ally to the LGBTQ community as well as I am. Her and I have both explored our sexualities. She's gone on dates with women. I don't think it has been brought up to my mom in general because she's also 20 years old and she's just, “I'm going on a date.” And that's it, no more questions asked. We do try to have those conversations with my mom and just have her as open-minded as possible, or try to explain to her what the youth is doing today and how we're not as corrupt or damaged as she would think we are, and it's not because of the media. That's the conversation we keep having like, “Oh, the kids are not gay because there's gay people on TV.” The kids are gay because they're allowed to, because those people are on TV. They would have been anyway.
If my mom was on the other line listening to our conversation, I would use this as an opportunity to, I guess, break the silence with her and just tell her that this is something that I am considering and have been considering. It's a part of myself. I think I would turn it around and kind of thank her for bringing us here and letting us be raised in a society that although she might not agree with it or might not necessarily relate to it, her daughters were able to grow up in a very open society that allows them to be who they are, or at least explore more options of who they are going to grow up to be.
Lantigua: Hearing Liz talk so comfortably and enthusiastically about her sexual exploration while at the same time, recognizing that it might be hard for her mom to understand all of it, really made me think, what can we as first gens do to bridge the gap with our loved ones, especially when it comes to topics that while they can be sensitive or even taboo can also bring us a lot of joy and bring us closer together? To help us figure it out, I called in an expert.
Stephanie Campos:
My name is Stephanie Campos, and I am a national sex education speaker. I am a public health professional. I am a proud and queer first-generation American and a child of Colombian and Peruvian immigrants and a proud and loud salsa enthusiast.
Lantigua: Thank you so much for being here. You heard Liz's story. What did you hear in the story as you listened?
Campos: You know, talking about sex in general and sexuality just can be a little bit hard. Some of the things that she was saying in terms of not knowing how to open the conversation, or just some views that her mom had, I just felt like, “Oh my god, I can totally relate.” Latino culture, Caribbean and Latin America is very rooted in religious views, which hasn't always historically had positive views of sexuality or queerness. And so that bleeds into our culture, even if we're here in this country. And so hearing her story, I just feel like so many of us can relate to that no matter your age. No matter if you're 18, 28, or 58, some folks are still coming out or figuring how to come out to mom, abuela, la tía.. And so that was the thing that sort of stood out to me the most.
Lantigua: All right. What are some initial steps when someone like Liz is in this status where they're learning about themselves and also trying to figure out at what point and whether to share what they're learning about themselves with their family, with their parents? Like, what are some steps?
Campos: There isn't the same 10 steps that we can provide to everyone because even our own culture within our family dynamic varies. There are some families that are extremely open and you can come out right away. And others, you almost have to tip toe or work around it, see where your mom is at. I mean, there's a couple of things. I think that first a person wants to begin with, how important is this for you that they know this about you right now? I think in Liz's case, she was very clear and aware that it's something that she's exploring, but that she's not sure that she wanted to share that with her mom yet. So I commend her for just knowing where she is in her process. She's already doing one of those first steps is, “Okay, do I need to tell them right now, or do I want to figure this out first?”.
The other thing is also finding out where your loved one is, what are their views and where are they in terms of what they think because they might have questions, they might have misinformation, misperceptions. And so coming from a place of curiosity first, can be very helpful to then share sort of where you are. Because I think a lot of the times when we think of coming out, we think, “I'm going to just tell you where I am and you would need to accept it.” It's sort of a dance that you do with your loved ones. It's like, where are you, where am I, and how do we meet halfway so that we are respecting each other's views, but also keeping the lines of communication open so that if questions do come up or fears or misconceptions, you can find ways to have those talks.
And practicing helps. You don't want to script yourself, but you want to get your own thoughts clear and organized. Because one of the things that we do as humans is that when we become emotionally hijacked by something, we word vomit and then we just word vomit all over that person and we just give them too much. And they're like, “Wow! That is a lot to take in.” So it could be helpful to just, okay, what do I want to say? What are my main points? And what are the top three important things, so that if you don't cover the 10 things on your item, at least you got to the most important, it opens the door for the next time that you communicate, and then you build off of that communication. But a lot of it depends on where your parent or where that individual is at. If they are completely resistant, they don't want to hear it, then you might not be able to get so much across and you don't want to force it either.
Lantigua: When we spoke to Liz, she spoke of sexual fluidity. That is definitely a very specific concept that many of our parents might not be familiar with. So talk me through how we can best prepare to have a conversation after we feel like our parent is ready to listen and bring up things like sexual fluidity, which they might not have any context for.
Campos: Absolutely. Sexual fluidity, interestingly, just across society, people are still not sure what to think of it because they're like, “Well, what do you mean?” And that's because we're taught that you're either straight or you're gay, and then bisexual came into the mix and they think, “That's it, that's where it ends. Anything more, it's ... ” We still get that, that gray area. People don't like things that they can't explain and when something is so flexible in general, people are so uncomfortable. And sometimes saying those things and validating those things that you know that they're thinking, helps.
I've started my conversations with that a ton of times with my mother, with family members, with strangers, where I'll say, let's say, we're talking about this, folks that are gender non-binary, or that are sexually fluid or how a person's sexual orientation can change throughout time, throughout their lifespan. And I'll start off by saying, “You know, a lot of people, you know, some folks believe that that's not right, that you're born this way. Others think that people change based on experiences.” And you sort of start talking about what you know is out there. And then you end it with, “Well, what I've learned, not just through myself, but through whether it's research, through just newer generations and friends, is that sexuality isn't black and white. That's why we know of so many folks that when they were young, they were in this type of relationship. And then when they were older, they were in another. And maybe after that, even older, they went back to where they started. And it is perfectly normal and it is perfectly fine as long as that person is in a consensual, respectful, and loving relationship, that's all that matters.”
But I totally understand how folks can still be confused. I think that one of the things that that does when you validate where someone is at and in their hesitation, is that they feel listened to. And then once that person feels listened to and validated, they're more open to listening you.
Lantigua: We've heard over and over from our guests, especially guests who have come out to their families, that the parent immediately goes, “Oh, it's a phase. You'll grow out of it.” There's some dismissal. And when I talked to Liz, she used the term bi-curious. I understand what that means, but I can imagine where someone like Liz comes and says to a parent, “Well, you know, right now I'm just bi-curious.” Right? Because I'm still exploring my possibilities. And they could immediately say, “Okay, so clearly it's going to pass. If it's just some curiosity.” How do we say, “Actually, no, it doesn't mean it's going to pass.” Right?
Campos: Yes.
Lantigua: It just means that this is where I am right now.
Campos: Yes. I love that question. I would say this, when you're speaking with anyone, your parents, whoever, who are not sure of the terms, they're not familiar with these terms, don't lead with that. Describe what that means. So don't say, “I am bi-curious.” You probably want to say, “Mom, I want to share something very personal with you that I'm sort of experiencing right now, and that is that sometimes I think about women. I don't think that I'm ready to be in a relationship with one. I'm not even sure if I'm ready to have sex with one, but I do wonder what that would be.” And so you basically describe what it is. Give them the context and allow them to visualize it. And then if you want to end that conversation with, “And by the way, some people, individuals call this being bi-curious. In case you hear that term, that's what it is, but I don't want you to get confused. So I want to ... ” Just describe it to them. That is the easiest way.
Lantigua: All right. My last question has to do with how we try to separate contexts. What I mean by that is, I grew up knowing that my uncle was gay and I grew up knowing that a beloved cousin of mine was also gay, but nobody talked about it ever. And so there is a very real context in which I grew up understanding how do we handle someone in the family who is different in this way. But when we came to the United States, that changed significantly. So can you talk me through how we can use the context, which is that back in the old country, back in the homeland, this is how our family has historically dealt with this. However, we're here, I'm different, I'm American and Colombian and Dominican and whatever else I am, so it has to be a little bit different.
Campos: So you just hit on something that I think is so true for so many families, even still in this country, which is that we perpetuate this culture of silence in our families, the things that we're ashamed of or uncomfortable talking about. We all have the tía snand tíos and cousins that are gay and that to this date, you know, supposedly they're not married because they're still working so hard and traveling. It's like, well, this person is like 87. I mean, really? No, that's not the reason. They're beyond college and working their careers out, but we do that. So one of the things that can work for some, and again, it depends on how you feel comfortable with it, we have to begin to role model what breaking the silence looks like. And that all relies on where we're at in our process.
Campos: So I'll go to a family function, my aunts, I see them like every weekends, they know I'm very queer, extremely, and they'll still ask me, they'll ask me, “When are you going to have a baby with a boyfriend?” You know that I'm not going to have a baby with a boyfriend because my partners are same sex partners, tía, that's why. Because that can biologically happen, I might have children, but it's going to require a different process. And it took me a long time to get there because before, I used to just go along with it, because I was as uncomfortable as they were. And it's up for me to do a lot of work, a lot of internal work within myself.
So once I felt more comfortable, then I started to ... It's almost like I call it exposure therapy and role modeling to them. Like, you know, “Here are my queer couple friends where they're doctors, they're lawyers.” And we're not going to say roommates. This is mi pareja. So it's like without forcing, but sometimes giving them, providing them with some language basically, and also give people time. Plant the seed, let them simmer in it, be available for questions and more conversation and being very clear about that. Like, “Anytime you want to talk some more, when you're ready, I'm here.” Otherwise, if it might be a little bit hard to expect a huge change of revelation within one conversation. It takes more than one almost 100% of the time.
Lantigua: Thank you so much. That's a perfect place to end. Thank you so much for that.
Campos: Great. My pleasure.
Lantigua: All right. Let's recap what we learned from Stephanie. Pick your top three points, decide ahead of time what the most important points are that you want to get across, and avoid saying more than the other person can actually take in at once. Validate their hesitation. Doing so shows your good faith and helps other people feel listened to, which in turn will make them more open to listening to you. And remember, dance at your own pace. Share what you feel comfortable sharing as you meet them half way. And as you role model, break in the culture of silence if and when you're ready to do so.
Thank you so much for listening and for sharing us. How to Talk to Mami & Papi About Anything is an original production of Lantigua Williams & Co. Virginia Lora is the show's producer. Kojin Tashiro is our mixer. Manuela Bedoya is our social media editor. Cedric Wilson is our lead producer. Jen Chien is our executive editor. I'm the creator, Juleyka Lantigua. On Twitter and Instagram, we're @TalktoMamiPapi. Please follow us and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Pandora Spotify, or anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts. Bye, everybody. Same place next week.
CITATION:
Lantigua-Williams, Juleyka, host. “Telling Mamí I’m Bi-Curious.”
How to Talk to [Mamí & Papí] About Anything,
Lantigua Williams & Co., July 26, 2021. TalkToMamiPapi.com.