Amy’s Puerto Rican mom began making retirement plans around the future grandchildren Amy would give her. But Amy had to tell her she was not planning to have kids. And Psychologist Maritza Mikolich returns to the show to explain codependency and offer advice on setting boundaries when sharing personal decisions with loved ones.
Featured Expert:
Dr. Maritza Mikolich is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist with a doctoral degree in psychology. She comes from a traditional Mexican family, raised in the United States, and spoke Spanish as her first language. Her parents were born and raised in Michoacan, Mexico and moved to the U.S. for the American dream of giving their family better opportunities. It was that dream that highly motivated her to follow her passion by going to college and studying psychology. She was the first in her extended family to get a college education and obtained her bachelor's degree at the University of San Diego, her master's degree at Saint Thomas University in Florida and her doctoral degree at Alliant International University in San Diego. She has therapy experience working in different settings, including youth and parents in foster care, teenagers in group homes, children in schools who struggle with behavioral issues, individuals struggling with co-parenting issues, and crisis intervention with all age groups. In October 2020 during the pandemic, she started her private practice in hopes of giving back to the Hispanic community. She provides psychotherapy primarily to adults in English and Spanish virtually through telephone and video throughout the state of California. She provides individual, family and couples therapy virtually to people struggling with depression, anxiety, trauma, life stressors, and relational problems. Learn more about her work here.
If you liked this show listen to When Mamí Makes You Doubt Becoming a Mom, Part 1 and Part 2, and Everyone's Asking "Are Your Pregnant Yet?"
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Juleyka Lantigua:
Hi, everybody. Amy's with us today. Amy grew up in a Puerto Rican family where having children was an unspoken expectation. As an adult, she decided not to have kids. So, when her mom started making plans around her future grandchildren, Amy realized she needed to be upfront about her decision. Let's get into it.
Amy: My name is Amy Baez. I am a pediatric occupational therapist, living in Miami, Florida. And I'm originally from New Jersey. I am the youngest of three children. And both of my parents were born in Puerto Rico. Growing up I called my parents, mom and dad.
So, as I was growing up, I felt like I was a pretty typical kid. I think because I was the youngest, I always assumed that I would have children. And everybody in my family had children, it was just a normal thing. But when I was in high school, my sister had a child while she was in high school. And obviously, that was challenging for her to do. But it really kind of scared me off a bit from having children anytime soon. And I think the language in my family really shifted as well. Now it was more of, take your time getting married, don't rush to have children, travel the world. I also was dealing with several health challenges through the years.
And working with children, especially children with disabilities, I realized how hard it was to raise children, and how much energy it took and how exhausted I was at the end of every day. And as things became a little bit more challenging for me going into my 30s and into my late 30s and then into my 40s, I thought, I don't know if I can really physically do this. I feel like part of the decision to have children is knowing that you have someone who's depending on you. That was something that I felt like I did not have enough energy and strength to do. And so, I started to think maybe this wasn't going to happen for me. Also, I was in a relationship with someone who wasn't exactly part of their plan to have children. So, , it was okay. It became okay for me.
Amy: It's hard to make that decision. I had little clues for myself. I had times when I felt like, should I choose to consider IVF treatments, or storing eggs, or going on a great trip to Europe for two months? And I picked the trip to Europe. And so, those are the kinds of things that kind of made me think, "Well, maybe there's still other things that are more important to me." And I would share those moments with her, my mom. But I never said it directly.
About five years ago when she started to talk about her retirement, how she wanted to spend time with her future grandchildren. When I come to Miami, I might look at houses. That's when I started to tell her, "I don't know if you should be planning your life around my life because I don't know if I'm going to really have children, and if I'm even going to be here." I think part of it was that I wanted her to make sure she was making decisions that were for her, and things that were going to make her happy, not necessarily basing her happiness on what I was doing.
I feel like when I first told her, that she took it fairly well. Was a bit shocked. I didn't expect those words to come out of my mouth, but then she's been dealing with unusual things coming out of my mouth for years. But I also feel like she was maybe a little bit sad, but didn't want to say that. And luckily, she already has four grandchildren, so that was really helpful in my eyes, to know that she's not depending on me for grandchildren. It was more about where she was going to live. It's not that I didn't feel like I didn't want to take care of her. I understand that role will likely fall on me as she gets older. But I didn't feel like that time was yet. And so I didn't want that decision to be based on what I was doing. Because I still feel like I had a lot of life to live, and I didn't know where that was going to take me. I felt like that was a really important decision in my life. And I didn't want her life to be influencing my decision, and vice versa. I really needed it to be separate.
Lantigua: Deciding whether to have children or not, is such an incredibly personal and tough decision. Amy's story makes me think about how for many first gens, it can feel as if our parents are relying on us, on our lives and on our decisions, for their own happiness. Pressure much? What can we, as first gens do to communicate to our loved ones that we get to decide what makes us happy? And conversely, how can we encourage them to do the same? To help us figure it out, I called it an expert.
Maritza Mikolich:
I'm Dr. Maritza Mikolich. I'm a marriage and family therapist, working with individuals and families as well as couples. And I'm Spanish speaking as well.
Lantigua: So, , same question. You've been here before. What did you hear when you listened to Amy's story?
Mikolich: I heard lots of conflicting thoughts and feelings when she was processing through some of her family ties. And so, there's lots of expectations that I heard. I also heard just as she aged, she says her 20s, her 30s and her 40s, and her beliefs started to change.
Lantigua: So, I want to actually pick up on that because to me, I mean, this was very familiar to me being a daughter, and having grown up with the traditional expectations of a daughter. I heard I'm expected to have children, so my mother will have grandchildren. I'm the youngest, so I will be expected to also be the one to take care of her. And she seems accepting and resigned to that fact. I also heard I'm expected to sacrifice my other desires, like traveling, being a professional, growing in my career, to have children.
Lantigua: So, let's talk a little bit about in your practice when you encounter these decisions, which are really big decisions that defer from the norm, what are some of the approaches that you guide your clients to, so that they can ease the shock or ease the pain of the decision when they tell their parents?
Mikolich: I really try to validate and normalize and empower them to really believe in their decisions, independently from their family. As grown adults, you want to be able to make these decisions without so many influences in your life, and really do it for you. And I think something that really stood out to me is, she transitioned into this acceptance. She said, "This wasn't going to happen for me. It became okay for me." She started accepting, "I'm not going to have kids. I just need that to translate and communicate that over to my mom."
Lantigua: I found it really interesting that one of the reasons that accelerated her, telling her mom was that her mom was beginning to make plans about the children that she was not planning to have, that Amy was not planning to have. And so she felt like, "Okay, I've got to tell her because she's making all these plans around something that's simply not going to happen." How do we handle that? I mean, that seems like so much pressure.
Mikolich: That's a lot of pressure. I mean, having children is a big responsibility. And then having that pressure by someone that you care about so much like your mom, you don't want to make her feel bad. You don't want to make her feel sad, which she did. But that's the thing, it's like I think she needs to be honest. She needs to be honest with her herself. And then she needs to translate and be honest with that other person. And so I think with that comes those boundaries that she knew she needed to establish through more open and honest communication of, what do I really want? Despite that pressure, I need to be my true self here. And I need to let her know plan something for you.
Mikolich: I think it's great that Amy's like, you've got to make choices for you, and you've got to live your life and your choices for you. Not for me, because I don't even know what that looks like yet.
Lantigua: So, isn't this called codependency in your circles?
Mikolich: Yes, it is. Absolutely. And I would say in the Hispanic culture, a lot of the time people are like, "No, but that's just how it is."
Lantigua: So, I'm going to ask it really bluntly, but why is codependency so bad? Help us understand why a system that is like water to fish for us, can be damaging, and it's something that we should actually break away from.
Mikolich: The thing is with codependency, it becomes more one sided. Both people don't end up really wanting the same thing. It's just not being talked about because there's this respect that happens in a culture like a Hispanic culture and Puerto Rican culture that exists that you respect your elders. So, sometimes your wishes, desires, and needs, they just kind of get dismissed or you're not as prioritized as the other person. So, breaking away from that cycle is important because you get to also make choices. Once you have some distance and create distance in a family and realize, we don't have to be so intertwined. I can have some goals and dreams and desires of living my life the way I want.
Lantigua: So, how can we help our parents prepare for the fact that maybe we don't want to take on that role?
Mikolich: I think what Amy did was great. She had some conversations and moments that she was able to open up to her mom and say, "Here is how I feel about this." So, start there and really be vulnerable enough to share even more. Go a step beyond by just saying, "Here is what I have been thinking about lately. I have been thinking more and more that this responsibility of having a child depend on me, might not be for me anymore. And it's something I've thought about long and hard, and it's not something that I want. And here's why." Although you don't have to give the why, but.
Lantigua: But it helps to give the why. So, one of the why's that she gave was her physical health because she saw how working with children, especially children with special needs, was really, really hard physically for her. I mean, taking care of young children, it is exhausting. I have children, I adore my children. But definitely earlier in my life, I was on the fence about it. And I'm the oldest daughter. And I knew very clearly because she reminded me from the minute I graduated college, that my mother was expecting grandchildren from me.
Lantigua: So, my last question has to do with, once you identify that you are in a codependent relationship and that you are the one who's bearing the burden, besides having conversations, what are some of the more tangible ways that you can establish those boundaries?
Mikolich: When you speak about boundaries, you have to remind yourself that these boundaries are for you, for your mental health. And so, sometimes that does mean taking a step back if mom continues to pressure. The same thing over and over again. Sometimes it means setting a very verbal agreement out there. Like mom, if I don't bring this up to you know, then we don't need to talk about this because these are your concerns and not something I'm thinking about. So, sometimes it's being very clear with those, and making sure the other person understands what you're saying. I know that's tough.
Lantigua: I'm just imagining any scenario in which I would say to my mom, well, that's your concern? Not my concern.
Mikolich: Right. And I think some of this has to do with tactic because then you get into others taking it personal, feeling bad. And then conflict arises from that.
Lantigua: So, the other thing, this is for real, for my last question, I've observed not only my family but in other families, that sometimes expectations that are cultural, social are sometimes treated as rights that other people have. Like they're entitled to certain things from you.
Mikolich: I see it all the time. There's always people thinking they have a right to lot of things. And we're talking about bearing a child, and that means your body. And then who's going to get up in the middle of the night?
Lantigua: Diapers.
Mikolich: Who's going to do all the day, minute things, like the things you have to think about. So, Amy has the right to her body. Amy has the right to say what she needs to say. Amy has all these rights. And she has the right to change her mind. Make one decision and then say, "You know what, never mind. I just got validation and confirmation within myself that this isn't for me." And that's really what she did with her years of experience with life and just relationships and health and career. It made her come to a realization.
Lantigua: Absolutely. I mean, it takes a long time though. I'm in my mid 40s, and I am finally feeling truly empowered to say no to say, "No, thank you," to say, "No, that's really not for me." I don't even try to even be polite and say, "I'll get back to you." I'm just like, "Nope. Thanks."
Mikolich: And you have a right to not explain yourself actually. You not have to give excuses and explanations, even when it's your mom. That's tough.
Lantigua: It is. Well, Maritza always, always so happy to have you here. Thank you for coming back.
Mikolich: Of course. Thank you so much, Juleyka.
Lantigua: All right. Here's what we learned from Maritza today. Be vulnerable. When communicating a personal decision to a loved one, start by being open about the thoughts and feelings you have around the decision. You don't owe anyone an explanation. But sharing your reasons can help others understand and ultimately accept your choices. Speak loud and clear. If you've made a decision that involves no one else but yourself, don't be afraid to point that out. And be blunt, if you need to. And remember, exercise your right to decide. The only person entitled to your decisions is you. Don't let the fear of hurting someone's feelings or disappointing someone distract you from what you know is best for you.
Lantigua: How To Talk To [Mamí and Papí] about Anything, is an original production of LWC Studios. Virginia Lora is the show's producer. Kojin Tashiro is our mixer. Manuela Bedoya is our marketing lead. I'm the creator, Juleyka Lantigua. On Twitter and Instagram, we're @talktomamipapi. Bye, everybody. Same place next week.
CITATION:
Lantigua, Juleyka, host. “When Mamí Plans Her Retirement Around Your Life”
How to Talk to [Mamí & Papí] about Anything,
LWC Studios., May 16, 2022. TalkToMamiPapi.com.