After an emotional coming out to his Mexican parents, Fermanparis wishes they showed more interest in his love life and life plans. And Aida Manduley, organizer and licensed therapist, returns to the show and speaks with Juleyka about how to invite curiosity into our family relationships. They offer practical advice for helping parents understand who we really are as adults.
Featured Expert:
Aida Manduley, LICSW, is an award-winning Latinx organizer, international presenter, and trauma-focused clinician known for big earrings and building bridges. Trained as a sexuality educator, social worker, and nonprofit management professional, they’re working to make the world a more equitable place through education, therapy, and community organizing. Their perspective centers intersectionality and maximizing kindness, while retaining both a sense of humor and a sense of justice. From The New York Times to The Rainbow Times, Mx. Manduley has been interviewed by a variety of media outlets. They were even brought on for a debate on the Laura Ingraham show—a popular conservative radio program—and lived to tell the tale. Learn more about their work here.
Aida reminds us we do not have to have these difficult conversations and recommends the following organizations for the tools and resources they offer: PFLAG, Familia Trans Queer Liberation Movement, and Fe, Familia, Igualdad (this last one has done a lot of cool work at the intersection of Latinidad, queerness and religion) .
If you loved this episode, listen to Getting Divorced, Coming Out and Telling Mamí, and When You Don't Believe in God, But They Rally Want You To.
We’d love to hear your stories of triumph and frustration so send us a detailed voice memo to hello@talktomamipapi.com. You might be on a future episode! Let’s connect on Twitter and Instagram at @TalkToMamiPapi and email us at hello@talktomamipapi.com. And follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts.
Juleyka Lantigua:
Hi everybody. Today we have Fermanparis with us. For him coming out to his Mexican parents was very difficult, but they all got through it. Now, several years later, he wants to share his life more fully with his parents, but they just don't seem all that interested. Fermanparis's wishes his parents would ask him questions about his personal life, his relationships, and his plans for the future, which they never do, but he doesn't know quite how to bring it up to them. Let's get into it.
Fermanparis: My name is Fermanparis and I was born in Jalisco, Mexico. I moved to the US when I was 15 years old. I came with my mom's sister and I moved to Santa Ana, California, one of my favorite places, to be honest. I used to call my parents ma and pa. Living with my mom's sister, it was nice, especially with my uncle. He was like my dad basically, and of course she was like my mom too. My parents, I still live over there in Mexico. Sometimes they come and visit me. They were here two weeks ago. It was great. We had an amazing time. We talk about many things, but for some reason they cannot even ask me or say nothing about me being gay. It's like a secret for them. The relationship with my parents, it was not too good, especially with my dad.
He is from a small village. I didn't connect with them. I didn't like to dress like a cowboy boy. I didn't like to be dirty. I didn't like horses. I didn't like to help him in the ranch. I was very attracted to nature for…the telenovelas, I'm going to say that, but fashion, I was more attracted to being with women, in a group with girls, and for them, especially for mens, it was not normal to see that. It was really tough. A lot of bullying, especially for my dad and also for my brother. To be honest, I don't have too many good memories, but it is what it is. I'm older now and I understand they didn't know better and they didn't have the proper education. When I was 18 or 19, that's when I realized, "Okay, I think I'm gay." The first time that I talked to my parents about being gay, the first person was my mom.
I wanted to tell her because it was really important. She cried a lot. Of course, I cried so much, and that was like five years ago. She literally not even say, "I'm with you. I love you." Nothing at all. She never said nothing bad, but the only thing that hurt me the most is she didn't say nothing, and I came out to my dad a year after. He was like, "M’hijo, I love you with all my heart. You are my son, and I will always love you forever." That was very shocking for me because he never called me, I love you, never in his life. My relationship with my parents, now, it's in the middle. I know they feel uncomfortable when I say something like, "My boyfriend," or sometimes, one time I told my mom, "That guy over there is cute." And she get nervous and she didn't know what to say.
I talked to them about anything but nothing about gay. They never say, "Don't say nothing. Don't tell me about your life." But I think I have to be more open and teach them about my community, the gay community. They need to learn about that, and of course I know it's hard for them. I wish they can ask me or call me at any time, let's say, "I've been thinking about you. I was thinking if you had a boyfriend or if you think about getting married or if you think about having kids with your boyfriend or I wish it can ask me more about if I'm okay, if I'm struggling with something. Are you doing good?" They don't ask me those simple questions for me, and for me it means the world.
Juleyka: I really, really related to Fermanparis's desire for a stronger connection with his parents. I've always wanted to be closer to my mom, but I don't know if I'm ever going to get there. I also really admire his willingness to do the work that he might require to reach that goal.
For many first gens, trying to maintain healthy and strong relationships with our families can be exhausting, but for those who identify as queer and especially for those who might be the first in their families to openly do so, this relationship management can be particularly frustrating and painful.
What can first gens like Fermanparis do to create more fulfilling relationships with their loved ones, relationships where they feel fully seen and known? To help us figure it out, I called in an expert.
Aida: My name is Aida, pronouns they/them in English, [foreign language 00:05:56]. I wear a ton of different hats, but the biggest ones right now that I'm wearing for this conversation are that I'm a community organizer and I'm a licensed therapist who basically specializes in working with people that therapy was not originally meant to treat well.
Juleyka: What did you hear as you listened to Fermanparis's stories?
Aida: Oh my gosh. I heard so much yearning for curiosity, which is something that I can really relate to as someone who also eventually came out to their family and had a lot of very mixed responses to that. That's honestly the biggest thing, especially for someone who got bullied. We deserve to feel not just safe, but we also deserve to feel openly appreciated and it sounds like this person was not feeling some of that.
Juleyka: First of all, I love that phrase, yearning for curiosity. What does that yearning do for the person who's experiencing it?
Aida: The yearning for curiosity is really a yearning for connection. It sounds like this person really has as a priority to be in connection with their family and also in connection with themselves. This person wants to be known as who they are rather than having to put up a front. And what that does for the person is it tries to ideally move them closer to the people that they care about, but it can cause a lot of pain when that yearning is not met or reciprocated.
Juleyka: It also puts a lot of the work on the person experiencing the yearning.
Aida: Yes, and as I was listening, one of the questions that came to mind that I had to ask myself too were, "What are my priorities here? What are my non-negotiables and how much am I willing to coach my family?" For me, one of my priorities was to stay in connection with them, and I knew that if I didn't coach them at all, we would probably not actually be able to remain in any level of good connection. For this audience, those are some of the things that I would ask them to question for themselves, "Is your priority to be in connection above all else? Do you have any things that you're not willing to tolerate? And how much are you willing to give your family resources or coaching and what is specific to your family?" The strategies that we use for our families or even different family members don't all have to be the same because they're not all the same person.
Juleyka: We talk a lot about that on the show, and sometimes our experts say, "Yes, put in the work," and sometimes they say, "No, go find other people who don't make you work for your acceptance."
Aida: This becomes, to me, a question of what does this person want and what is the ecosystem of care that they have around them? But I don't fall on either camp inherently. I'm not saying you have to put in the work or not put in the work. It really just depends on what you want to do, and it's okay to have these desires, experiences, and strategies change over time.
Juleyka: Let's talk a little bit about what are some of the strategies that you and your clients work on as they are making attempts at having better, closer relationships with their loved ones?
Aida: I'm a huge fan of basically becoming a little detective of your family. I ask people to think about, "For other difficult conversations, how have those gone? What has worked, what has not?" I also ask them to think about, "Your family, where are they being exposed to ideas about queer people? What messages might you have to counter first before they can listen to you? Do they have any positive messages that have come in about this topic?" And then we're looking at specifically what could you do? For example, with some clients, what they start doing is they start like planting little semi [foreign language 00:09:49] little seeds of the conversations that they want to have over time, and then they escalate. The other thing that I ask folks to think about is, "Who are the safer, less dangerous people to talk to in your family? Has there been an [foreign language 00:10:06] who's like, "Look, I don't understand you, but I love you regardless, that you may be able to talk to first and start testing some of this out."
Don't start with the hardest thing that's setting you up for failure. Don't start with the hardest person. Then I also ask people to think about, "What is your ultimate goal right now? Is it that you want them to be more curious about something specific, and are there ways that that need could be met even if they were not proactive with their curiosity?" Shouldn't be our cross to bear. I want to be very clear about that. A queer person should not be having to bear the burden of their family's intolerance or ignorance. However, we do live in a world where many of our families got taught very crappy things about how to be in the world and had to survive very horrible conditions.
And one of the things, I didn't make up this phrase, but I heard it and I have not been able to let it go since, is what would your parents have to face themselves in order to face you?
Juleyka: Wow.
Aida: I find that extremely humbling because sometimes when we're asking our family to listen, to be curious, one of the things that they have to deal with sometimes is their own queerness that is unacknowledged. Sometimes it is their own history of family members not being curious. Sometimes we're asking them to deal with traumatic events that we don't even know about. To us, also stay curious about all the things that may be standing in their way and to know that we can't control all of that.
Juleyka: Actually, what you just said leads me to my next question because Fermanparis and his parents have another complication between them, which is that they live in a different country and they live in a conservative country. How does that psychological and physical distance impact or how can he think about that in terms of what he would like to receive from them?
Aida: That's also partly why I ask the question of what is your family getting exposed to? One of the things that, for example, I found extremely upsetting and unfortunate with my own family, in Puerto Rico, my dad was apparently at some point listening to these really conservative, local pundits that I wasn't aware, and to me that was a very important marker of, "Okay, they're getting poisoned. Okay, cool. Good to know. Some of those things are probably going to show up in our conversation. I should be a little ready for that, even just emotionally." There's this piece about sometimes being ready for conversations or ammo that we're not being exposed to. The other piece with the distance is if they didn't see this person really grow up, they might still have this old image or they might just not know how to bridge who they knew with who is in front of them right now.
With the distance, there may be these needs to bridge, "Do you see me as an adult right now or are you seeing me as a child? Are you shy about trying to connect with me as an adult because you don't know how to do it because you've never had to do it?" And sometimes there's just a lot of expectation that if something is important, the person for whom it is important will bring it up because it's rude to ask questions. This is where the testing, the waters can come in. If you say something, do they respond with a question? Do they immediately change topic? Those are little detective things that you can tune into as you're trying to figure out how to talk to them for further about it.
Juleyka: I think that quite literally, from immigrant generation to first generation, we are in different cultures. Politically speaking, and in terms of our identity development, we're in different cultures, and I think a lot of the times, naively first gens forget that we are culturally different from our parents.
Aida: And I agree. For me, one of the strategies too is you being curious about them. Sometimes the way to start to get around some of this is to either ask them about their lives, whether that's directly or indirectly. If they see that you care, if they see that you're interested, sometimes they will also show up for that more because it doesn't feel like you're just coming here to be affirmed and we all have to change for you. You're also willing to put in some effort, and I see that a lot of immigrant families and a lot of families where they're split up by country, there's a lot of heavy burden of, "Look at all I had to sacrifice for you, and are you willing to sacrifice anything for me?" That sometimes we have to play around with to build a bridge.
Juleyka: That is such an important point because the parents are coming from a place where that level of emotional elasticity was not modeled and was never expected, and then suddenly I am coming with a full gamut of expectations in terms of what I would like for you to do to engage with me in meaningful ways.
Aida: Right, exactly.
Juleyka: My final question is what didn't I ask you? What else should we be considering when we're having these conversations and as we try to move forward with our loved ones?
Aida: One of the questions that I wish I could have asked this person was, what do these things mean to you? If they're more curious, what does that mean to you? Does it mean that they love you? Does it mean that they accept you? Are there other ways right now that they are trying to show those things to you that you may be missing that might make it a little bit easier to have these conversations? For example, I grew up in a household where if you were sad, you better deal with that on your own. If you're angry, we're going to fight about it. Then everyone goes to their own room, pretends like [foreign language 00:16:12] nothing happened, and then we come back for dinner as usual. But there could be these little overtures of, "Look, I brought you a mango," this thing that's like a peace offering, either a little item of food or I'm going to give you [foreign language 00:16:28]. I'm going to give you a little massage when your feet hurt.
There's all these nonverbal, for some of us indirect ways of showing care, appreciation and love that we either don't recognize, don't want necessarily, or don't see as what they are being sent to us as. If someone's feeling like, "I feel like my parents just don't care, they're not invested." I'm not asking them to change their mind on that, but if part of what they want to know is like, "Does my family love me? Do they care? Are they curious?" Expand the scope a little bit. What are the things that they're asking you about? Are there other ways that they're showing you that they care? Not so that you can replace those, but so that you can hopefully see that there are ways that they are showing up, that they are trying to extend towards you, and that bolsters the connection because the connection itself is what's going to make it more possible for you to further connect and challenge them.
The other thing is sometimes it can be really powerful to share when we are struggling with our family, and again, this is not for the faint of heart, this is not something that works for every family, and some families will certainly twist it and be like, "Of course you're suffering because you're gay." But for some families, being able to not just show them a pretty little sunny picture of our lives can be a game changer.
Sometimes they never really knew how much bullying we were getting, or they didn't realize how much their own bullying toward us affected us, and if we can let them peek in at some of that pain or let them peek in at some of the love that we've gotten to heal that, sometimes that starts to turn the gears. And the other thing I'd remind people of is that, and again, I didn't make this one up, I have heard it over the years, but the reminder that just because our families didn't break every generational curse, that they probably broke a bunch and that they probably did unlearn a lot. To just keep a little bit of that humility in mind too, that we received the benefits of some of that unlearning. And there's a little bit of humility when we're unlearning things and pushing back on them. They probably did some of that with their own families too.
Juleyka: I love that you remind us to recognize that. Aida, thank you so much.
Aida: Thank you.
Juleyka: Here's what Aida taught us today.
Figure out your priorities and your non-negotiables. Knowing where you're willing to compromise and where you're not will help you enter into difficult conversations with clarity and purpose.
Play detective, look back to hard but successful conversations you've had in the past with your family and think about what made them work. Also, pay attention to what messages your relatives are exposed to and use all of this evidence to inform your own approach.
And remember, disclose your pain. In certain circumstances, opening up about hurtful experiences may help loved ones see you, know you and understand you better. It may even help shift the dynamic in unexpected ways.
We have linked to some of the resources Aida recommends in our episode notes.
Thank you for listening and for sharing us. How to Talk to [Mamí and Papí] about Anything is an original production of LWC Studios. Virginia Lora is the show's producer. Tren Lightburn mixed this episode. I'm the Creator, Juleyka Lanitgua. On Twitter and Instagram, we're @TalktoMamiPapi. Bye, everybody. Talk to you soon.
CITATION:
Lantigua, Juleyka, host.“How to Talk to [Mamí and Papí] About Anything: Yearning to be Known by Parents, but They’re Not Curious.”
How to Talk to [Mamí & Papí] about Anything,
LWC Studios., July 31, 2023. TalkToMamiPapi.com.